I have seen something along the lines of this question before on this forum but I don't believe i ever saw a exact answer.... My question is, is it possible that if you were to drop your p-64 could it fire? ( 1 in the chamber, hammer not cocked) I know newer handguns have internal safety's that would prevent an accidental discharge if dropped. Seeing as how my p-64 is a 77, I didn't know if there was similar safety features like newer handguns? I don't plan on dropping my gun anytime soon, but i would imagine that it is a possibility especially if carrying every day . I figured this would be something good to know.
Thanks for any responses.
Accidental discharge?
-
45automatic
- Posts: 5
- Joined: December 13th, 2009, 3:13 pm
Accidental discharge?
I dont really know the answer but, I heard a story about a guy who blew up the toilet when he dropped his gun while going to the toilet.
-
kurremkarm
- Member
- Posts: 128
- Joined: December 11th, 2009, 4:37 am
Accidental discharge?
Field strip your own gun and look at it. If you move the safety to the safe position what do you see? The hammer is blocked when the gun is in the safe position and also the trigger is disconnected.
As long as the gun is in the safe position there should be no chance of an AD-- OTOH, if you carry it safety off, hammer down on a live round it appears to me as if it might cause an AD.
Using the search feature I found a thread where some of the more experienced posters discuss the rebounding hammer-- based on their posts it would seem that due to that feature of the p-64 it should be safe to carry safety off as far as dropping it and AD.
Here is that thread:
viewtopic.php?t=2527
As long as the gun is in the safe position there should be no chance of an AD-- OTOH, if you carry it safety off, hammer down on a live round it appears to me as if it might cause an AD.
Using the search feature I found a thread where some of the more experienced posters discuss the rebounding hammer-- based on their posts it would seem that due to that feature of the p-64 it should be safe to carry safety off as far as dropping it and AD.
Here is that thread:
viewtopic.php?t=2527
Last edited by kurremkarm on January 24th, 2010, 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Accidental discharge?
45automatic,
I too have heard a story like that, if its the same story I heard it was with a Glock and some how or another the trigger was pulled... I think is was at a gun show.
I too have heard a story like that, if its the same story I heard it was with a Glock and some how or another the trigger was pulled... I think is was at a gun show.
Accidental discharge?
Kurremkarm,
I appreciate the response, and the link to the other post.
I appreciate the response, and the link to the other post.
Accidental discharge?
Never heard this one... but its not the first accidental discharge I have heard about in a restroom, I have heard at least three separate story's like this.
Accidental discharge?
Permit me to give you a great AD story on a Series 70 1911 Colt. This guy spent over 2 grand refinishing and pimping out this 5 inch Colt. He always was bragging how safe it was to carry cocked and locked to the point of being annoying.
Then one day as he was going through his brag routine at the range when he dropped it and it hit smack dab on the barrel and went off. Concrete went fling everywhere and no one really got hit bad. The pistol went up into the drop ceiling block and bounced around up there. When we all cleaned out our underwear and got to a step ladder to get the pistol. There it was STILL COCKED AND LOCKED! The inertia from the firing pin is was set it off. So much for Cocked and Locked and now we all know why Colt went to Series 80 with pin blocks.
Moral......NEVER GET COMPLACENT WITH GUNS!
Then one day as he was going through his brag routine at the range when he dropped it and it hit smack dab on the barrel and went off. Concrete went fling everywhere and no one really got hit bad. The pistol went up into the drop ceiling block and bounced around up there. When we all cleaned out our underwear and got to a step ladder to get the pistol. There it was STILL COCKED AND LOCKED! The inertia from the firing pin is was set it off. So much for Cocked and Locked and now we all know why Colt went to Series 80 with pin blocks.
Moral......NEVER GET COMPLACENT WITH GUNS!
Accidental discharge?
wow i can only imagine how he felt after that... luckily no one got hurt.
-
heavyduty77
Accidental discharge?
Boomer
I certainly am not doubting your report of the AD of the 1911 pistol; however, I find it hard to believe that a PROPERLY fitted 1911 would suffer an inertial discharge from being dropped from a height of about three feet with the safety engaged! Since you did mention that someone had performed $2000 worth of work on the said pistol, I would venture to say that the thumb safety was incorrectly fitted by whomever performed the modifications. I have seen thumb safties that were so poorly fitted that, for all intents and purposes, they were essentially just serving as the grip safety pivot! Also, if modified to have a very light trigger pull by someone who isn't well experienced or extremely careful when stoning the sear angles and hammer notches, there is a very strong probability that the hammer "fell" when the pistol was dropped causing the discharge and then re-cocked from the action of the slide cycling. There are dozens of articles and posts that have documented serious hammer "follow" and safety issues caused by incompetent modifications performed on 1911's. Some gunsmiths even caution their customers that have had "light" trigger pull work performed that they keep their thumb on the hammer when letting the slide go to battery to prevent hammer follow!
HD77
Below is an excerpt from the Sight M1911 website:
Is "Cocked and Locked" Dangerous?
By Syd
Q: The one and only problem I've ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry "cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?
There are really two parts to your question so I'll deal with them separately.
First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm
Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you're new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don't because they don't go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn't tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn't want to tell me.
What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:
"About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi "Pancake" on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt's, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun)."
The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don't advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don't give me a "duh" on that one because weird things happen to one's mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).
When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more "accidental discharges" with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.
If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.
A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don't have a safety at all (and no, I don't consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.
Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I'm in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can't visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I'm going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.
I have seen "accidental discharges" with M1911's, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.
Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.
Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?
In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.
Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.
Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get "un-new" to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don't have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.
I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.
"Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren't any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don't believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I'll prove it to you." – Chuck Taylor
I certainly am not doubting your report of the AD of the 1911 pistol; however, I find it hard to believe that a PROPERLY fitted 1911 would suffer an inertial discharge from being dropped from a height of about three feet with the safety engaged! Since you did mention that someone had performed $2000 worth of work on the said pistol, I would venture to say that the thumb safety was incorrectly fitted by whomever performed the modifications. I have seen thumb safties that were so poorly fitted that, for all intents and purposes, they were essentially just serving as the grip safety pivot! Also, if modified to have a very light trigger pull by someone who isn't well experienced or extremely careful when stoning the sear angles and hammer notches, there is a very strong probability that the hammer "fell" when the pistol was dropped causing the discharge and then re-cocked from the action of the slide cycling. There are dozens of articles and posts that have documented serious hammer "follow" and safety issues caused by incompetent modifications performed on 1911's. Some gunsmiths even caution their customers that have had "light" trigger pull work performed that they keep their thumb on the hammer when letting the slide go to battery to prevent hammer follow!
HD77
Below is an excerpt from the Sight M1911 website:
Is "Cocked and Locked" Dangerous?
By Syd
Q: The one and only problem I've ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry "cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?
There are really two parts to your question so I'll deal with them separately.
First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm
Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you're new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don't because they don't go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn't tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn't want to tell me.
What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:
"About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi "Pancake" on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt's, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun)."
The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don't advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don't give me a "duh" on that one because weird things happen to one's mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).
When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more "accidental discharges" with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.
If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.
A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don't have a safety at all (and no, I don't consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.
Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I'm in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can't visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I'm going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.
I have seen "accidental discharges" with M1911's, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.
Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.
Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?
In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.
Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.
Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get "un-new" to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don't have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.
I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.
"Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren't any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don't believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I'll prove it to you." – Chuck Taylor
Accidental discharge?
Heavyduty, he said series 70 -> no fpb...which is why series 80 came to be. I don't think they would muck it up for no reason.
Good info from m1911!
Good info from m1911!
http://www.usgunleather.com
-
heavyduty77
Accidental discharge?
dickfunk
I hear you regarding the Series 80. Unfortunately, as Chuck Taylor commented at the end of the article, "misplaced concerns about safety and liability" driven by a litigious society and the anti-gunners have been the primary forces driving us towards the DAO and Series 80 type modifications (by the way, parts are available to return the Series 80 to a Series 70 type ignition system).
Personally, when I was overseas 40+ years ago, I learned to carry my 1911 with a round in the chamber and hammer on half-cock (the way Browning originally designed it (before the Army made him add safties) and the way an old Korean War Master Sergeant taught me (sarge was left handed and said the thumb safety was a pain for him to operate!). I carried it in that condition almost every day for a year and even slept with it on my chest that way for a couple of weeks during the TET offensive. However, I would never suggest or recommend that anyone else ever keep it that way.
Since those days I've practiced with and learned to use the thumb safety at all times. The only "safety" changes I've incorporated into my current 1911 was to install a titanium firing pin and an extra strength firing pin spring; neither of these were readily available years ago. I am convinced that I would be able to drop it on its muzzle from the top of a building and it still wouldn't develop enough firing pin inertia to make it discharge much less than from a three foot height! I guess I have a bit of a soft spot for the 1911 so please bear with me and excuse my too long response about this.
Regards,
HD77
I hear you regarding the Series 80. Unfortunately, as Chuck Taylor commented at the end of the article, "misplaced concerns about safety and liability" driven by a litigious society and the anti-gunners have been the primary forces driving us towards the DAO and Series 80 type modifications (by the way, parts are available to return the Series 80 to a Series 70 type ignition system).
Personally, when I was overseas 40+ years ago, I learned to carry my 1911 with a round in the chamber and hammer on half-cock (the way Browning originally designed it (before the Army made him add safties) and the way an old Korean War Master Sergeant taught me (sarge was left handed and said the thumb safety was a pain for him to operate!). I carried it in that condition almost every day for a year and even slept with it on my chest that way for a couple of weeks during the TET offensive. However, I would never suggest or recommend that anyone else ever keep it that way.
Since those days I've practiced with and learned to use the thumb safety at all times. The only "safety" changes I've incorporated into my current 1911 was to install a titanium firing pin and an extra strength firing pin spring; neither of these were readily available years ago. I am convinced that I would be able to drop it on its muzzle from the top of a building and it still wouldn't develop enough firing pin inertia to make it discharge much less than from a three foot height! I guess I have a bit of a soft spot for the 1911 so please bear with me and excuse my too long response about this.
Regards,
HD77
Accidental discharge?
No problem! I'm gearing up to do a small build on a 1991 Colt Commander!
I understand things from a legal perspective, but I also take comfort in knowing that there a small little plunger that could prevent something terrible from happening. You can never say never, especially with firearms and if a little extra weight on the trigger pull could save someone an injury or worse, I'm fine with it.
I'm under the impression that the half cock was a fail safe; not a mode of readiness (albeit very common WWII). I do know that the titanium pin and strong spring are what Springfield uses as a 'drop safety' to keep their guns free of series 80 parts.
I'll post photos when I'm done!
I understand things from a legal perspective, but I also take comfort in knowing that there a small little plunger that could prevent something terrible from happening. You can never say never, especially with firearms and if a little extra weight on the trigger pull could save someone an injury or worse, I'm fine with it.
I'm under the impression that the half cock was a fail safe; not a mode of readiness (albeit very common WWII). I do know that the titanium pin and strong spring are what Springfield uses as a 'drop safety' to keep their guns free of series 80 parts.
I'll post photos when I'm done!
Accidental discharge?
The mass and weight of a steel .45 caliber firing pin is enough to ignite a round if the gun hits smack on the front barrel and bushing when dropped from 3 feet on to a hard surface such as concrete. Force = Mass x Acceleration. I have seen this happen more than once in my experience and the gun will still be cocked and cocked as the one in the ceiling blocks was.
This is just another design flaw of the JMB design. The firing pin is an inertia activated part much like the one in the P 64. It is not long enough to reach the primer when the hammer is lowered however the impact from the hammer drives it forward like that desk toy you see with the 8, 1 inch ball bearings in strings. When you swing the the one on either end the ball on the other end will move the same amount from inertia impact. There are two laws of simple physics in play here. One Force equals Mass X Acceleration and a Body in Motion Tends to Stay in Motion. Basically the firing pins are struck with a lager mass hammer causing the firing pin to continue the motion and strike the primer. Just like that ball bearing toy you see.
Springfield Armory was plagued with this very series of problems of 1911 Series 70 type drop discharge while cocked and locked and corrected the problem by using a heaver trigger spring and a lighter 9 mm titanium firing pin in their series 70 type pistols. That is also the reason that Wolffe Springs adds that extra power firing pin spring to their replacement recoil springs of all weights for the P-64.
Contrary to common belief the 40% heaver trigger spring increases the initial primer impact while shortening the penetration duration of the floating firing pin. You can see the increase in the dimple on the primer by changing it. It also improves the pistol cycle timing in breeech locked and blow back style pistols.
Now that said, I also firmly agree with Norm Sutton that Wolf ammunition is very susceptible to primer piercing and has made paperweights of more than one pistol by breech parts damage by a ruptured primer in Wolf Ammunition. The replacement of the increased power firing pin spring does not reduce this but increases it because the firing pin is going to move faster with the stronger spring to with a shorter duration to return to start position. Another two laws of physics come into play here, A body in Motion Tends to Stay in Motion and Every Action Has an Equal and Opposite Reaction.
I hope I have explained myself clear enough. I am a custom 1911 builder who has studied all of the design faults of the 1911 pistol such as pegged plunger tubes and ejectors and friction binding of close tolerance parts. The 1911 is not a range gun by design. It was designed to be a large caliber close quarters combat weapon with an effective range of 50 feet for use in the trenches of Europe in World War I and easily loadable on horse back over the .38 and .32 caliber revolvers.
Please see the Original Field Manual for this pistol.
http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm
Also remember that 250,000 American were killed in Europe with much smaller bullets than the .45 cannon ball. They also did not have hollow points either. The human body was not intended to be struck with any size object traveling at around a thousand feet a second under any circumstances.
Stay Safe at All Times. Guns can't think only we can!
This is just another design flaw of the JMB design. The firing pin is an inertia activated part much like the one in the P 64. It is not long enough to reach the primer when the hammer is lowered however the impact from the hammer drives it forward like that desk toy you see with the 8, 1 inch ball bearings in strings. When you swing the the one on either end the ball on the other end will move the same amount from inertia impact. There are two laws of simple physics in play here. One Force equals Mass X Acceleration and a Body in Motion Tends to Stay in Motion. Basically the firing pins are struck with a lager mass hammer causing the firing pin to continue the motion and strike the primer. Just like that ball bearing toy you see.
Springfield Armory was plagued with this very series of problems of 1911 Series 70 type drop discharge while cocked and locked and corrected the problem by using a heaver trigger spring and a lighter 9 mm titanium firing pin in their series 70 type pistols. That is also the reason that Wolffe Springs adds that extra power firing pin spring to their replacement recoil springs of all weights for the P-64.
Contrary to common belief the 40% heaver trigger spring increases the initial primer impact while shortening the penetration duration of the floating firing pin. You can see the increase in the dimple on the primer by changing it. It also improves the pistol cycle timing in breeech locked and blow back style pistols.
Now that said, I also firmly agree with Norm Sutton that Wolf ammunition is very susceptible to primer piercing and has made paperweights of more than one pistol by breech parts damage by a ruptured primer in Wolf Ammunition. The replacement of the increased power firing pin spring does not reduce this but increases it because the firing pin is going to move faster with the stronger spring to with a shorter duration to return to start position. Another two laws of physics come into play here, A body in Motion Tends to Stay in Motion and Every Action Has an Equal and Opposite Reaction.
I hope I have explained myself clear enough. I am a custom 1911 builder who has studied all of the design faults of the 1911 pistol such as pegged plunger tubes and ejectors and friction binding of close tolerance parts. The 1911 is not a range gun by design. It was designed to be a large caliber close quarters combat weapon with an effective range of 50 feet for use in the trenches of Europe in World War I and easily loadable on horse back over the .38 and .32 caliber revolvers.
Please see the Original Field Manual for this pistol.
http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm
Also remember that 250,000 American were killed in Europe with much smaller bullets than the .45 cannon ball. They also did not have hollow points either. The human body was not intended to be struck with any size object traveling at around a thousand feet a second under any circumstances.
Stay Safe at All Times. Guns can't think only we can!
Accidental discharge?
I have a question, how do I find out if I have a series 70 bbl. I have a Springfield that was suppose to be a civilian copy of the FBI pistole when Springfield got the FBI contract. If I remember they had to pass a drop and drag test before the Feds would consider a purchase. I'm just curious about the series 70 etc. I trust my pistol but I really don't want to drop it anywhere that might damage my firearm or cause harm to others by accident.