sight modifications

Mods and Fixes by P-64 users...
Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 10th, 2012, 12:14 am

2old2run, thanks for the kind words. I am still very happy with the setup and have had no second thoughts about how I could have done it better. Which for me is almost unheard of. I like the red dot sights a lot, but again there is that thing of electronics failing at the wrong time. There is a solution on the red dot sight front for your M1A though, Trijicon makes an awesome red dot scope that uses fiber optic fiber to provide the dot illumination during light and tritium during dark. No batteries or circuts and switches to fail, ever! A bit pricey, but it is really cool. :mrgreen:
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

2old2run
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Re: sight modifications

Post by 2old2run » May 10th, 2012, 5:57 pm

Ketchman,
1911.jpg
1911.jpg (9.9 KiB) Viewed 3235 times
P-64_front.jpg
P-64_rear.jpg
P-64_rear.jpg (15.22 KiB) Viewed 3235 times
The red dot is one of these type:
http://www.tasco.com/products/index.cfm ... ductID=684

It came highly recommend by a local LEO who is the department's armorer and a knowledgeable, experienced and aggressive cop. Obviously, a SWAT/military grade EOtech or Aimpoint would be ideal, but I could buy a really nice gun for what they cost.

By the by, here are some pictures of my simple solution for the P-64. Just some acrylic paint. Used the same for my High Standard Crusader Compact, but drilled a 1/16" depression in the front sight blade and on either side of the rear notch and it works great for everything except dead of night.

Obviously drilling a depression is a cleaner and more durable job, so I'll probably do it to the P-64 too.

I'm a German trained master goldsmith with over 40 years experience, but there's no way I'm getting after the slide to cut a dovetail with my little Unimat. With jewelry, if I screw it up, I can always melt it down and do it again, but don't have that option with the slide. I'm pretty limited around here as far as gunsmiths and machinists so nobody local to send it to. If I had that option, I'd definitely consider doing what you did.

Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 11th, 2012, 12:14 am

2old2run,

I have one of those same tasco's, had it on my Marlin 336 in .35 Remington for deer hunting in the cedar swamps in Michigan when I lived there, good sight for the price and worked great there. But now I live in Wyoming and it doesn't get used much cause of the difference in hunting terrain and style. And I know what you mean about the cost of aimpoints- ouch!
I like the sight setups on your pistols, I posted some pics of my stable of pistol's,

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4589

wherin I did the same thing. But I did not like how narrow the front sight on the P-64 was as far as having enough surface area for paint to be really visable and that's what made me go this route.
With your training as a jeweler I would love to see what kind of work you could do on front sights to make them more visable given the right equipment.
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

2old2run
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Re: sight modifications

Post by 2old2run » May 12th, 2012, 1:03 pm

Ketchman,

I am not a hunter, but went out once with a friend from West Va. who had been doing it all his life. I pretty much wanted to know how to dress out a deer in case I ever had to and figured if I was eating it, I should know how to obtain it. I didn't particularly enjoy the experience as I needed to squat to make my shot and ended up supporting myself on a small, aggressive cactus. I'm sure you can imagine the rest. I started shooting in the Boy Scouts and loved it. Most of my practical experience was in the Southeast Asian War Games in the mid-late '60s. Primary weapon was an M-60. I'm more about personal and home defense anymore and don't consider myself a marksman, but concentrate on +/- 100 yards for rifle and 2-10 yards for pistol. I don't like killing anything that isn't trying to kill me, but don't condemn hunting or hunters and would be out doing it if the only other option were starving. I'm currently working on moving to the Fairbairn/IDF instinctive pointing method which would pretty much make upgrades on sights irrelevant for me. I still wouldn't pass on the opportunity to do some fancy "gee-whiz" sight modifications. The work you did is a very tough act to follow and trying to improve on perfection is an exercise in self abuse.

You've got a great stable there and I will be posting some of my own gun porn soon. My pistol stable is:
Browning Hi-Power
S&W Model 66 .357 4"
S&W Model 19 .357 4"
P-64
Ruger LCP
Glock 26
S&W Model 39 Airweight Bodyguard
High Standard Crusader Compact
Cobra .22 Mag derringer
The Model 19, Bodyguard, Glock and LCP are pretty much my wife's. My pet is the Browning and bedside is the Model 66.
Last edited by 2old2run on May 12th, 2012, 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 12th, 2012, 2:22 pm

2old2run

That stable of yours is a very good one and I too like the Browning very much, except me being the idiot I am want one from the WWII era, which of course will cost me seriously. And I must say your jewelry is most impressive, excellent skill exhibited there. And it reminds me very much of Celtic jewelry, which compromises some of my background so I have a personal bias towards it. Have you tried replacing any of your front sight's with German silver of gold beads? I have heard of that being done, mostly with gold but some with German silver and have heard some really good things about the results. 'Course a bit more costly than a plastic fiber optic tube with the price of precious metals and all. :(
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

2old2run
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Re: sight modifications

Post by 2old2run » May 12th, 2012, 7:41 pm

Ketchman,

My Hi-Power is an '80s vintage. I wanted one ever since I saw the Aussies carrying them back when. The only one that is really important to be older is the Bodyguard which is probably '70-80s. Don't like the new ones very much. This one is specified for NOT +P. Some of the new ones are supposed to be good w/+P which I think might be a slight advantage. Past that I prefer newer stuff to the romance of older stuff, main considerations are function, condition, reliability and price.

As far as the jewelry, that's only a smattering of what I do. I go contemporary and traditional, cast and fabricated in any style requested. Left to my own devices I like Art Nouveau and Victorian for formal stuff, but will work in any style and any material except the exotic metals like Titanium, Niobium and Tantalum. I don't mind them, when appropriate for other functions though.

I just finished "Shoot to Live" by Fairbairn/Sykes and he had mentioned a silver bead. Silver oxidizes and gets dull, but 14K yellow would be okay. I think they would give a lot of glare at the least opportune time and the reflection could be a giveaway at the same least opportune time. A matte finish on a 14K yellow or white bead would be pretty good though. The hot way to do it would be to just thread a piece of round gold wire and file one end hemispherical, put a slot in it and put it in like a screw. Leave the slot lined up horizontal or vertical and it's good to go. I would think 4/40 might be a good size and I'm sure it would cost less than your fiber optic rig as we're not talking about a lot of weight. That means that if you're interested it can be made to happen.

If you haven't seen the Fairbairn treatise, here's a link. It was good then and it's still being taught by this guy:

Don't get all funny about Survival4Chicks, I thought it was going to be one of those sites with pictures of scantily clad females with weapons, but it turned out to be more serious.

Shooting to Live – Fairbairn and Sykes – FMFRP 12-81
http://www.survival4chicks.com/?p=478

Here's a link to the current IDF system. The guy is well credentialed and from the videos appears to be the real deal.
http://www.combatconcepts.info/index.html

You been to Gunsite?

Hare Krishna!

Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 13th, 2012, 5:30 pm

Y'know 2old2run, sounds as if you already have the plan in mind about how to do the gold bead sight well thought out, why haven't you done that on your Bodyguard or Hi-Power. I bet it would look really good and work great. Also sounds as if you have the tools, skill and materials readily available.
I have read snippet's "Shoot to Live", but never the whole thing. And I have not been to Gunsite or any other official training school, although I would LOVE to go to Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch. All my training has come from local, county and State police trainers I know from past employments, kinda informal but formal if you understand. Thanks for the links, I will check them out. And I would really like to see what you could do with a front sight. :D
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

2old2run
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Re: sight modifications

Post by 2old2run » May 14th, 2012, 3:57 am

Ketchman,

Hi-Power came with a white dot on the front and there's not much help for the Bodyguard. Having seen your work and reading about the Fairbairn recommendation of the precious metal beads recently just got me thinking about it. By the same token, the Fairbairn "no sight" point and shoot method, just got me seriously thinking that with my intended use, it might be pointless. I'm still up in the air about it.

You'd find "Shoot to Live" up to page 53 and 72-80 interesting and pertinent.

My training was Army basic and then AIT and none of the sights; 1911, M-14, M-60, M-2, M-79 were anything particularly trick and they all worked well enough for the task at hand. Past that, I've worked with friends in law enforcement, others with diverse training, read the usual books: Cooper, Farnam, etc. DVDs by Gabe Suarez and Craig Douglas (southnarc) were outstanding as well. It really comes down to checking out everything that's available, separating the wheat from the chaff, training with others who are serious about it and proficient and then knowing full well that, “All skill is in vain when an angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket.”

Switching from using sights to training without them is going to be challenging, but I believe if and when it comes to reality then training, muscle memory and instinct will prevail and the good guys will live to tell about it.

What I could do with a front sight would be whatever you want and you seem to know down to the last detail what you want. I do some light machining, but only parts for guns--not on guns. Since you're a hands on guy, you could get a piece of stainless welding rod as it will take and hold a polish. Just get an appropriately sized piece, thread it, round one end, polish it and cut a slot in it with a jeweler's saw. If you know what diameter you want, I could send you an appropriately sized piece of sterling wire if that would work for you or just do the whole thing. It would have to be a 4-36 or a 4-40. The smaller jewelry dies are either metric or arcane watchmaker sizes. The cost of the silver would be insignificant and I doubt it would take 10 minutes. Happy to do it if I don't have to buy a die.

Just posted my gun porn a few hours ago:
http://p64resource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4589

Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 15th, 2012, 10:22 pm

2old2run,
Checked out your gun porn last night, nice stable, I want the S&W's. They remind me of the model 10 with special heavy 6" barrel I had to carry doing armed courier work. You have a well thought out bunch.
I don't follow the "point and shoot" thought train, just doesn't seem that it would be as effective without massive amounts of training to build muscle memory. And one other person that I have informally trained with who retired as a master chief in the SEAL's, ( I know, for real or just a talk it up fake. He was real, I have some of his old equipment and I have seen some things he has that could not be had otherwise) who taught me that under combat conditions, instinctive shooting ain't for s*&^! Just the act of looking for and aligning the sights has been proven (in SEAL/ government testing) to actually help in keeping the mind active and working and NOT going into lockup mode. He has been there, I have not. I trust him. And all the other trainers that I have read of have all stated to use the sights, so....... But thats for me, I don't try to tell anyone else what they should do unless they ask me to. (why is it so few people do that....... :?:?)
Anyway, I will take your advise about how to do a precious metal front sight under advisement. I would think that Bodygaurd would be a great candidate for a nice big fat gold bead front sight.
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

2old2run
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Re: sight modifications

Post by 2old2run » May 18th, 2012, 6:49 pm

Ketchman,

Thanks. The S&W 66 and 19 live by the bed and I've never had a problem with them. The BG has a pretty thin blade. The addition might be better accomplished with a piece of gold rod slit most of the way lengthwise the width of the blade and then just slip it on parallel to the barrel, solid end pointing toward the shooter, and epoxy it. The only problem my wife has with it is shooting low consistently. Gold bead might help with her sight picture.

Your take and references on the point shooting make a great deal of sense and I'll consider them. I think, after over 50 years of using sights, it might be a hard transition. My thoughts were based on the fact that the system's been around for a long time, Fairbairn was no chump, and much of the intended purpose of the handgun will be extremely short range and right-the-F***-now. I never bill myself as an expert and am always open to informed input.

You never responded to whether you want me to make you a threaded silver bead. If your front sight is wide enough for you to drill and tap it for a 4-40, I'd be happy to do it and send it along to you. No charge as long as I get to see of picture of it installed.

Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 25th, 2012, 8:55 pm

2old2run,
Sorry no response till now, been working out of state. I agree with you on the intended purpose of a handgun is for right the f+&%@* now and short range and that Fairbairn was no chump. That would be like saying the 1911 pistol is a latecomer, a bit off the mark as it were.
As far as making me a silver bead front sight, I am honored that you would do that and I may yet take you up on that offer. It is intriguing. But as of this moment I have all my handgun sights pretty well setup and am happy with them except for my Officers RIA 1911, haven't done a thing with that one yet and have not decided which way to go with it. But thanks for the offer, I very much appreciate it.
By the way, I just bought a new Taurus PT709 Slim 9mm pistol. A little present for myself for 15 years sober. If you haven't looked at them and you like your carry pieces small and slim, check them out. VERY concealable and very soft shooting. I'll post pics later. :mrgreen:
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

2old2run
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Re: sight modifications

Post by 2old2run » March 3rd, 2019, 10:20 pm

Ketchman,

No apology necessary on slow response. Life has a way of constantly getting in the way of life. We're on the same page, chapter and verse.

Please don't assign too much to the offer of making a silver bead front sight as it's very simple: Put appropriately sized silver rod in vise, apply die, cut piece leaving an approximately 1/8" unthreaded nub, file end flat, saw screw slot. You shape the business end any way you want.

I just started rethinking getting around the limitation of my dies and that would be to use a piece of thick walled silver tubing with an ID the appropriate size to fit in the hole that you'd drill in your front sight. I could then silver solder a short piece of silver rod in it. It would still leave you with a short solid cylinder, but without the slot for a screw driver, and a smaller diameter rod you could epoxy into a hole in the blade. I know epoxy gets loose at about 200 degrees, but if your barrel and sight get that hot, I think the nice tight fit would keep it from moving. Just thinking out loud and the offer is always open.

I'd been thinking of an alternative to the P-64, but it has so much going for it: 264# trigger pull, punishing recoil, safety that's opposite the traditional 1911, butt magazine release, limited parts availability and odd sized ammo with limited choices and low capacity. I read some ballistics comparisons between 9mm, .38 Spl, and 9mm Mak, then did some comparison between the P-64 and a Glock 26 and as far as I can see the only place the Glock comes up short is the slide is a little wider. The P-64 just has so much damned panache though. Still going back and forth and, if I could find a way to keep my pants up with the 2.5# of iron, I'd consider the 1911. Living in a laid back rural area where I carry for the "once in a blue moon maybe what if". Were I were living in an urban jungle, I'd be carrying the 1911 or the Hi-Power with the Glock for backup, and the P-64 to back up the Glock.

Congratulations on your sobriety. The closest I ever came was giving up cigarettes after about 45 years. Never a heavy smoker, never addicted, but it was a very strong habit. I can't even imagine what it took for you. You deserve a military Hummer with a Ma-Deuce mounted on it. The Taurus looks like 21st century technology with a lot of Glock in the DNA. I had looked at the Ruger LC9 and, of course, the Kimber Solo. I got over the Kimber thing when I went with the High Standard 1911, but it's always nice to look.

Pax,

2old2run

superc
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Re: sight modifications

Post by superc » May 13th, 2019, 4:31 am

Pictures not visible anymore.

Ketchman
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Re: sight modifications

Post by Ketchman » May 13th, 2019, 4:54 pm

I will take some new ones and get them posted.
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.

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