The Unofficial P64 Resource Forum

I shot the 115gr Bullet today and it achieved everything I wanted it to do.

9mm Mak EGerman
Starline Brass
Primer WSP
Rimrock 116gr Cast LFN

Round No.1 Ten rounds chronographed 10ft Spacing.
COL .970
3.7grs W231
Lo 942 FPS
HI 980 FPS
AVG 969 FPS
ES 38
SD 11

Round No.2 Ten rounds chronographed
3.8grs W231
COL. .970
Lo 993 FPS
Hi 1003 FPS
Avg 1000 FPS
ES 11 FPS
SD 4

I have to say this is my East German Makarov and yours may not act or do the same. I started a 3.0grs and worked my way up. I say again your gun may not do the same and mine is the only one that can use these loads safely. Use these loads at your own risk.

Accuracy was very good with these rounds 5 out of 10 in a 1.5" bull at 25yds, rest spread out over 6" circle.

The 3.8grs of W231 very closely matches the Buffalo Bore ammo. The rimrock cast bullet come in two versions, standard at about 14 to 15 Bhn and the hard cast at 20 to 22 bhn. I recommend the 20-22 because with these loads the standard bullet leads a little.

fknipfer1

I CONSIDER THESE AS MAXIMUM LOADS AND NOT PLINKING LOADS, I WILL USE THEM AS SELF-DEFENSE LOAD ONLY. THEY WILL WEAR YOUR PISTOL OUT IF YOU SHOOT THESE ON A CONTINUEING BASIS.

Excellent work Frank. Did you by chance ever weigh the powder charge in one of the BB rounds? I'm curious if they were to use a similar or exact powder as W231 if it would weigh the same. Oh well. I'm glad you acheived the goal you set out to do and your Mak still lives to tell the tale. The accuracy seems pretty good. Can't wait to get an email with pictures sometime.

The BB rounds were 4.2grs of something that looked like W231 but thats too much powder as when I chronographed the BB's they were right at 1000 fps also. I certainly wouldn't go there with W231 as I am satisfied now. Next project a good plinking load for 93gr Lfn from Missouri Casting.
It takes a minimum of ten rounds to get good readings so that's what I used and where I stopped.

fknipfer1

The ES and SD of both of those loads were super.

That is just awesome Frank! I've been curious for some time about loading the Rim Rock 116 grain bullet with W231 or AA #2. I'm glad you took the time to work this up!! It really looks like a stellar loading.

I am looking forward to what you manage to come up with on the 93 grain Missouri Bullet. I've got a box of those and I have good results with AA #2 at 3.6 to 3.7 grains for a nice plinking load.

Great job Frank, thank you so much for all of your efforts.
G.R.

I've been working with the 116 grain Rim Rock hard cast bullets in my CZ-82. I am using cut down 9mm Luger brass. I worked up to 3.7 grains of w231 following in Frank's footsteps. I am having to load the 116 grain Rim Rock bullet to .955 to function properly in the CZ-82. They come out VERY accurate and VERY hot. Vigorous recoil. No pressure signs looking at the primer and case, and no blowback of unburned powder in my face. I am getting a consistent dent in the side of each of my cases at this load level, like the case is impacting the gun somehow on the way out. I don't normally get this with my plinking loads. I'll try to get a picture. I am running the extra power recoil spring from Wolff on my CZ-82.

I'm loading these .015 shorter than Frank was so that they chamber in the CZ-82. Also, by using cut down 9mm Luger brass instead of real Makarov brass I lose a little case volume. I'm tempted to try 3.8 grains of w231 but I'm conscious of the case volume issue, especially since I don't have a chrono. I may hunt up some Starline Mak brass at the next gun show.

Fish, I would think you should have roughly the same case volume with the Luger brass after it has been fired in the pistol. The small amount of remaining taper after sizing will have fire-formed itself to the chamber. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

I thought Luger brass was thicker around the head and reduced case volume compared to true Mak brass.

The consistent dent I am getting just below the mouth on my cases is definately the top edge of the extractor at the ejection port. It matches right up. The case is hitting the ejector with such force it is flipping around 160 degrees and the extractor is denting the case just below the mouth. I definately have some serious slide velocity going here, even with the extra power Wolff recoil spring.

Got a good pic of the dent.

I didn't have that problem with my EGerman Mak. I used the heay 22# Spring from Wolf Springs and have reloaded so of the rounds fired with the 116gr bullet. I did say these were heavy defense rounds and only have 50 or so loaded for my Mak. I plink with something else and only use these for carry so I don't care if i lose them or not. If I have to fire in defense who know where they will go. Sounds like you need a heavier recoil spring.

fknipfer1

I'm using the heaviest aftermarket recoil spring available for the CZ-82, an 18 lb Wolff spring. Stock is 14.5 lbs.

Not so much worried about the 'loss' of the brass from denting, just reading all the signs available since I don't have a chrono. Seems I'm getting some wicked high slide velocity.

I don't know why the CZ82 only takes a 18# recoil spring even the P64 can be had in a 22# spring. Makarov.com say it has a shorter slide surface than the PM Makarov but I don't know so I probably would back off of the 3.8 to say 3.6grs for your pistol. If you chrongraph it the fps ought to be pretty good anyway and no slide speed problems, just thinking.

fknipfer1

Data point: The chrono data from Buffalo Bore shows the CZ-82 running 43fps faster than the EG Makarov.

So interpolating against Frank's work, I may already be above 1000fps in the CZ-82 with 3.7 grains of w231. I don't think I'm going to try 3.8 grains without chrono-ing what I've already done.

Another data point: I took a close look at my range pick up brass that came out of my CZ-82 that was loaded with 4 grains w231 behind a 95 grain bullet (the Norm Sutton load). I consider this a relatively hot load. It feels quite snappy. What I found was a very slight denting in the cases, similar in form but much less pronounced than the dents in the picture above. Maybe I'll get some pics and post later.

So it is somewhat re-assuring to know I'm not WAY out there with the dents I'm getting in the brass. It isn't something new; It has occurred before, just less pronounced. Still, I suspect 3.7 grains w231 is the VERY top end for the CZ-82 if not a little over. Without a chrono I will probably run 3.6 grains for carry for the time being. Sure as snot I won't be plinking with it!

fish,
I used .970 as a COL and you used .955 as a COL. This could be reason you are getting more pressure than I did. 3.6 sounds like the best load for you.

fknipfer1

The Rim Rock bullet doesn't feed reliably in the CZ-82 at any length longer than .955. The other bigger issue IMHO is the use of converted 9mm brass -vs- real Makarov brass. A while back I sized, fire formed, and filled two cases to the rim with powder, one converted the other real Mak. Weighed each. I was shocked at the weight difference. I need to go do that again and use Lee's VMD numbers to figure out actual volume difference.

I'm going to pick up some starline brass and try again.