When firing (or even dry cycling), sometimes it will not fire. I took it apart as far as I can, which is basically slide and grips off. What I can see is that the "sear rod" isn't catching the sear the way it's supposed to. I can recreate the problem by putting a bit of downward pressure on the sear rod when pulling the trigger. The hook just misses the notch. Thus, I assume it's either being held down by some unseen part, or there is a malfunction in the trigger action that doesn't lift the sear rod up as it should.
Sometimes, when it happens, it's a one-time occurrence. Other times, it requires a few trigger pulls to get it to catch. It seems to happen less when slide and grips are off - perhaps less often with just the slide removed than with just the grips removed. it does still happen though.
For a visualization, see the pictures in this thread. I'm getting E when I should have C.
I thought at first that the front end of the sear was holding down the sear rod, so I polished that contact point a bit. No joy. It had a slight burr on the slide, which was scratching the frame a smidge, so I stoned that as well. Still no joy. This happened when it came in new condition (after a cleaning of course), and changing the recoil and hammer springs have had no effect in making it better or worse in dry firing. Haven't put any rounds through it but I can't imagine that's going to help matters.
Can anyone help me? I'm no gunsmith, but I understand basic mechanics, and this seems like a simple problem.
EDIT - just thought I'd throw out a quick intro since this is my first post. I came here because this is apparently the best place for PA-63 information. I'm not totally new to firearms, but I'm not *that* experienced either. I picked up the PA-63 because I loved the style (and the price) and wanted something unique and reliable for carry purposes down the line. I've read nothing but good about how great it is (yes, besides the DA trigger pull feeling like trying to stop a '75 Dodge with a serrated knife held in your trigger finger, and the snappy recoil). Anyhow, thanks for any help y'all can give me!
EDIT AGAIN - Looks like I fixed the problem. After all this, I bought a P64 trigger spring from Norm, hoping to reshape it correctly. Unfortunately, I flubbed that all up. Fortunately, I am obnoxiously stubborn. I took to reshaping the original, thinking "can't really make it worse". I gently removed the bend that turns the spring toward the frame. Then I bent the 'v' to a sharper angle and made the bend that goes up into the trigger bar straighter so it sits inside the trigger bar better. It looks almost the same as before, as the adjustments were rather subtle. I'm not sure exactly what the problem was - maybe the spring was rubbing against the frame, or maybe the little bit of extra leverage gained from the sharper 'v' helped. Could be a combination of the two. Whatever the case, it hasn't failed me since I made those adjustments. Will give it a live trial tomorrow and we'll see how it holds up.
FINAL EDIT - Took the PA-63 out for some live-fire drills. No malfunctions. Well, I don't count the light primer strike on DA I had because that could have been a freak primer problem, or a problem with the weaker hammer spring. Either way, it is completely unrelated to the problem I was having. Now, I only got to go through one box of ammo today, so it may still be a little too early, but I think we're good. When I was having problems, it was very frequent. Thanks for bearing with this rather selfish thread.
Trigger problem with PA-63 - FIXED
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Trigger problem with PA-63 - FIXED
Last edited by BorisThespider on May 22nd, 2011, 3:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
So I'm guessing you haven't tried out a P-64 yet?I picked up the PA-63 because I loved the style (and the price) and wanted something unique and reliable for carry purposes down the line. I've read nothing but good about how great it is (yes, besides the DA trigger pull feeling like trying to stop a '75 Dodge with a serrated knife held in your trigger finger, and the snappy recoil).
I don’t know enough about gun innards to do much more than get myself into an occasional spot of trouble, but I suspect that some suggestions will be forthcoming. I’m assuming that you’ve cleaned everything up as well as you can? (Since someone else is bound to ask.)
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
No, I haven't tried a P64. Oddly enough, it was a P64 (mislabeled at a big chain store as a Makarov) that got me interested in this style of firearms. I'm hoping to expand my collection to a Makarov next, and a P64 after that. Who knows how long that will be, though...
Anyhow, yes, I have cleaned it up as best I can. I'm not sure how to do some disassembly (like taking off the sear), so I was using brushes and a good spray of oil to get into the tiny places. I can probably polish the interface between the sear rod (or trigger bar as I've seen it called) and the sear (or cocking lever as I've seen it called), but I hesitate to do so for fear of removing too much material. Those little suckers are hard to find, expensive to buy, and only removable using some kind of Hungarian voodoo.
I'm leaning toward the conclusion that there is a spring of some kind that is supposed to push that sear rod back up and it's either missing or too weak. I think I can clean up that joint a little more without causing any new malfunctions, but I'd really like to see some images of work others did in this area, or at least a confirmation, to be sure before I get to zealously removing material.
And, btw, this thing does hit me hard. My thumb knuckle sits right under that tail piece and gets rubbed raw when handling, and bruised when firing. I did swap the springs after the range time, so that may help there. Otherwise, I may need to do a little reshaping - if I can work up the nerve. Assuming the new hammer spring doesn't cause light strikes, the new DA is silky smooth. I was rather angry at the problems at first because I felt like I got ripped off. Assuming it can be fixed, I'm actually rather pleased - time spent working on it's like bonding with my gun. Plus, I'm not sure the thing was even test-fired judging by the condition it was in. Anyhow, a test round would have had an infinitesimally small chance of malfunctioning.
Update - can't stop tinkering. I've been polishing and deburring what I can without taking it down further. I'd love to find a detailed take-down guide so I know what to expect. Still no joy. For a moment, I actually thought I had made it worse. After finding more topics loosely related on various forums, and one very similar issue, I'm thinking more and more that it's the trigger spring. It's either weakened somehow, or not in position. I don't know how to tell though. Any closeup photos of this small area on a working Pa-63 could be very helpful as well. In the photos mentioned before, I notice there is a rather large gap between the interruptor/disconnector (F) and the sear (E), as compared to the one on mine. Mine are basically in constant contact. I'm thinking that's not supposed to be the case. Here is the photo:
It's important to note that that is exactly what mine looks like when it refuses to fire - except I don't have that big of a gap between E and F.
Anyhow, yes, I have cleaned it up as best I can. I'm not sure how to do some disassembly (like taking off the sear), so I was using brushes and a good spray of oil to get into the tiny places. I can probably polish the interface between the sear rod (or trigger bar as I've seen it called) and the sear (or cocking lever as I've seen it called), but I hesitate to do so for fear of removing too much material. Those little suckers are hard to find, expensive to buy, and only removable using some kind of Hungarian voodoo.
I'm leaning toward the conclusion that there is a spring of some kind that is supposed to push that sear rod back up and it's either missing or too weak. I think I can clean up that joint a little more without causing any new malfunctions, but I'd really like to see some images of work others did in this area, or at least a confirmation, to be sure before I get to zealously removing material.
And, btw, this thing does hit me hard. My thumb knuckle sits right under that tail piece and gets rubbed raw when handling, and bruised when firing. I did swap the springs after the range time, so that may help there. Otherwise, I may need to do a little reshaping - if I can work up the nerve. Assuming the new hammer spring doesn't cause light strikes, the new DA is silky smooth. I was rather angry at the problems at first because I felt like I got ripped off. Assuming it can be fixed, I'm actually rather pleased - time spent working on it's like bonding with my gun. Plus, I'm not sure the thing was even test-fired judging by the condition it was in. Anyhow, a test round would have had an infinitesimally small chance of malfunctioning.
Update - can't stop tinkering. I've been polishing and deburring what I can without taking it down further. I'd love to find a detailed take-down guide so I know what to expect. Still no joy. For a moment, I actually thought I had made it worse. After finding more topics loosely related on various forums, and one very similar issue, I'm thinking more and more that it's the trigger spring. It's either weakened somehow, or not in position. I don't know how to tell though. Any closeup photos of this small area on a working Pa-63 could be very helpful as well. In the photos mentioned before, I notice there is a rather large gap between the interruptor/disconnector (F) and the sear (E), as compared to the one on mine. Mine are basically in constant contact. I'm thinking that's not supposed to be the case. Here is the photo:
It's important to note that that is exactly what mine looks like when it refuses to fire - except I don't have that big of a gap between E and F.
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
The spring you speak of is the trigger spring. It comes out of the frame behind the trigger and into the trigger bar where it's slotted on the bottom.
If it's not there I need a dental pick, about 10 minutes, and the proper four letter incantation.
If it's not there I need a dental pick, about 10 minutes, and the proper four letter incantation.
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Update - As per directions from Norm, I gave it a deeper cleaning. Soaked it in kerosene overnight (and then some). Then I attacked it with brake cleaner - several passes, ensuring to get into the nooks and crannies with every once-over. Finished up by spraying it down with oil. I hosed it in the same manner - all over, and in every nook where I could stick the straw. I can't see how any residual solids would be remaining in there. Still no joy. I just finished up with another, possibly even more vigorous hose-down with brake cleaner and oil. Haven't tried it yet. I'm letting some oil run off rather than risk getting lint anywhere with a towel.
The trigger spring is in place. I can shine a light in there and see it just fine. It sits behind the trigger, goes to the loops, and comes back up under the trigger bar and resides in a slot on that underside. Plenty of four-letter incantations with this though.
Maybe I should reiterate that it works most of the time. Also, when it fails, it's usually just once. Sometimes, though, I can pull the trigger a half-dozen times with no joy.
I'll update after this last treatment once I reassemble.
UPDATE - No joy. Still having the same problem.
The trigger spring is in place. I can shine a light in there and see it just fine. It sits behind the trigger, goes to the loops, and comes back up under the trigger bar and resides in a slot on that underside. Plenty of four-letter incantations with this though.
Maybe I should reiterate that it works most of the time. Also, when it fails, it's usually just once. Sometimes, though, I can pull the trigger a half-dozen times with no joy.
I'll update after this last treatment once I reassemble.
UPDATE - No joy. Still having the same problem.
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Fixed?
After some "emphatic chanting", I decided to go ahead and try my next guess.
I popped out the pin holding the trigger in place. I removed the trigger, trigger spring, and trigger bar. I checked to be sure the spring sat in the right place in the trigger. I removed some machine marks from the channel behind the trigger bar, as well as deburred the trigger bar itself. My guess was that those machine marks were catching tiny burrs on the backside of the trigger bar. I used a fine stone on both surfaces, but I will likely go back and polish that channel even better (more on that in a minute).
It was a bit tricky to get everything back in place, but here is what I did. I set the trigger bar beneath the sear, where it belongs, but not quite in the channel. With the trigger guard held down, I slid the trigger/trigger spring assembly into place, first seating it in the trigger bar slot. I allowed the trigger guard to close to aid in holding the trigger in place, and I set the trigger bar "peg" in the hole it is meant for. Then I pressed the pin back in place.
Now it works a lot better. After a few minutes, I still got a couple failures, but nowehere near as many - and only ever one at a time. So I think it was a vast improvement. Next, I will likely go back in there and remove those tool marks better and even polish that channel, along with the backside of that trigger bar. Judging by the progress from this fix, I expect that will correct the problem 100%.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions - especially to Norm, who is so willing to help out a novice like me on his own time.
Oh, and expect a final update after I get the chance to go back and finish it off.
ANOTHER UPDATE - Went back in there with a dremel and a slight touch. Smoothed out the rest of those tool marks and got the channel pretty well polished. Did the same to the back of the trigger bar, but even more gentle. There are some vertical marks on the backside of that yet because I really didn't want to remove too much material from that and cause any damage. Reassembled (albeit less gracefully than less time), and it runs so smooth now. I cycled it a number of times and I got a problem or two, but I'm pretty sure it was me not allowing it to reset properly. I hope to make it to the range tomorrow, so I'll see what happens then. It sure does look nice though. Except for one mark where I got a bit clumsy with the dremel and touched the frame in front of the grip.
I popped out the pin holding the trigger in place. I removed the trigger, trigger spring, and trigger bar. I checked to be sure the spring sat in the right place in the trigger. I removed some machine marks from the channel behind the trigger bar, as well as deburred the trigger bar itself. My guess was that those machine marks were catching tiny burrs on the backside of the trigger bar. I used a fine stone on both surfaces, but I will likely go back and polish that channel even better (more on that in a minute).
It was a bit tricky to get everything back in place, but here is what I did. I set the trigger bar beneath the sear, where it belongs, but not quite in the channel. With the trigger guard held down, I slid the trigger/trigger spring assembly into place, first seating it in the trigger bar slot. I allowed the trigger guard to close to aid in holding the trigger in place, and I set the trigger bar "peg" in the hole it is meant for. Then I pressed the pin back in place.
Now it works a lot better. After a few minutes, I still got a couple failures, but nowehere near as many - and only ever one at a time. So I think it was a vast improvement. Next, I will likely go back in there and remove those tool marks better and even polish that channel, along with the backside of that trigger bar. Judging by the progress from this fix, I expect that will correct the problem 100%.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions - especially to Norm, who is so willing to help out a novice like me on his own time.
Oh, and expect a final update after I get the chance to go back and finish it off.
ANOTHER UPDATE - Went back in there with a dremel and a slight touch. Smoothed out the rest of those tool marks and got the channel pretty well polished. Did the same to the back of the trigger bar, but even more gentle. There are some vertical marks on the backside of that yet because I really didn't want to remove too much material from that and cause any damage. Reassembled (albeit less gracefully than less time), and it runs so smooth now. I cycled it a number of times and I got a problem or two, but I'm pretty sure it was me not allowing it to reset properly. I hope to make it to the range tomorrow, so I'll see what happens then. It sure does look nice though. Except for one mark where I got a bit clumsy with the dremel and touched the frame in front of the grip.
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
I have one thing to say..."$%^*%$@#!!"
Made it to the range. It's a lot worse when firing live ammo. Bad enough that I just stopped trying after a magazine plus a few rounds. Got back home and went in again. Got that channel and trigger bar sparkling. I can see myself in them. Also polished up the contact point between the trigger bar and sear. After that, I polished it all again. I'm getting the hang of reassembling now - only took me a few seconds this time. Pulled the hammer back and...nothing. The very first try exposed my failure.
Now I have no idea. For some reason, the trigger bar just doesn't want to move up into place every time. Does anyone have any ideas?
Made it to the range. It's a lot worse when firing live ammo. Bad enough that I just stopped trying after a magazine plus a few rounds. Got back home and went in again. Got that channel and trigger bar sparkling. I can see myself in them. Also polished up the contact point between the trigger bar and sear. After that, I polished it all again. I'm getting the hang of reassembling now - only took me a few seconds this time. Pulled the hammer back and...nothing. The very first try exposed my failure.
Now I have no idea. For some reason, the trigger bar just doesn't want to move up into place every time. Does anyone have any ideas?
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
really sorry to hear of your problems, I had something similar happen to me, and in my case it was spray cleaning and lube that fixed the problem.
Is there any way that you can get with whoever sold you the gun and ask for a replacement pistol?
Is there any way that you can get with whoever sold you the gun and ask for a replacement pistol?
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Bought it from a shop in Texas. I'm don't really want to deal with paying more shipping and FFL fees for a new one. At this point. I think I may call them back, though, and see what they can do for me.
What was your problem, then? Was it gunk in the trigger assembly or behind the trigger bar? I've taken all that out and cleaned it all several times now. I really wish I could at least narrow it down to one thing. It happens with the slide on or off, but happens worse when actually firing, and seems to happen more with slide on even dry cycling.
The only theories I have are: the spring is too weak; or the trigger bar/decocker sits too close to and catches on the front of the sear; and/or the slide somehow holds down the decocker when it shouldn't. I would hate to remove material for fear of affecting the decocker operation. And I know the spring "springs" because I flexed it to be sure when it was apart.
What was your problem, then? Was it gunk in the trigger assembly or behind the trigger bar? I've taken all that out and cleaned it all several times now. I really wish I could at least narrow it down to one thing. It happens with the slide on or off, but happens worse when actually firing, and seems to happen more with slide on even dry cycling.
The only theories I have are: the spring is too weak; or the trigger bar/decocker sits too close to and catches on the front of the sear; and/or the slide somehow holds down the decocker when it shouldn't. I would hate to remove material for fear of affecting the decocker operation. And I know the spring "springs" because I flexed it to be sure when it was apart.
-
normsutton
- Global moderator
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: February 26th, 2006, 6:59 am
- Location: LAKELAND FL.
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Boris
if you ever get back to Orlando give me a call, I see what I can't do to fix it
NORM
if you ever get back to Orlando give me a call, I see what I can't do to fix it
NORM
NORMSUTTON@AOL.COM
N.R.A. LIFE MEMBER 1976
N.R.A. LIFE MEMBER 1976
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Ha, that sounds great! I'm still trying to figure out how to make that move viable. I would just bring it down on the next flight, but...you know...
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Alright this may be a silly question, but I'll ask it anyways - for anyone who has one of these (or several). during the firing cycle, when does the trigger bar move up into the firing position? By "in position" I mean at the top of the channel, in position to grab the notch on the sear. Is it when you release after the shot is fired, or is it as you are pulling the trigger for the next shot?
Mine moves during the trigger pull. If it's supposed to move to ready before you pull the trigger, I should be able to find my problem rather quickly. That means that the decocker is catching on the sear when it shouldn't be. Should probably be an easy fix as well - just remove a little material from one or both of those surfaces.
So, if anyone can tell me how theirs acts - how it's supposed to act - that would be great.
Mine moves during the trigger pull. If it's supposed to move to ready before you pull the trigger, I should be able to find my problem rather quickly. That means that the decocker is catching on the sear when it shouldn't be. Should probably be an easy fix as well - just remove a little material from one or both of those surfaces.
So, if anyone can tell me how theirs acts - how it's supposed to act - that would be great.
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Alright, this thread has been a little masturbatory, but I still feel like this can be fixed, and hopefully someone else may eventually have this same problem and can be helped too. I asked a question on YouTube and it was surprisingly answered rather quickly. I asked for a video of the trigger operation and that is what I got here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu0idr9B69M
What that shows me is that the same points have the same amount of contact on his working PA-63. It also shows that his trigger bar seems to have more force when it moves up into position. Mine moves pretty quick when it does work, but never quite so strongly. That tells me I likely have a weak trigger spring. That begs the following question: Where can I buy a new trigger spring? Can I modify some other spring to work?
Oh, on a side note, I did a quick (albeit goofy) test to try my theory. I held the gun upside-down, so the trigger bar (spring) would have the aid of gravity. After a few dozen dry fires, I got tired and quit. It did work flawlessly, though. That's a longer stretch than I have ever gotten after any attempts.
What that shows me is that the same points have the same amount of contact on his working PA-63. It also shows that his trigger bar seems to have more force when it moves up into position. Mine moves pretty quick when it does work, but never quite so strongly. That tells me I likely have a weak trigger spring. That begs the following question: Where can I buy a new trigger spring? Can I modify some other spring to work?
Oh, on a side note, I did a quick (albeit goofy) test to try my theory. I held the gun upside-down, so the trigger bar (spring) would have the aid of gravity. After a few dozen dry fires, I got tired and quit. It did work flawlessly, though. That's a longer stretch than I have ever gotten after any attempts.
Last edited by BorisThespider on May 16th, 2011, 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
-
normsutton
- Global moderator
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: February 26th, 2006, 6:59 am
- Location: LAKELAND FL.
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
Boris
the trigger return spring tail should be on the bottom of the trigger bar, it holds it up not down
NORM
the trigger return spring tail should be on the bottom of the trigger bar, it holds it up not down
NORM
NORMSUTTON@AOL.COM
N.R.A. LIFE MEMBER 1976
N.R.A. LIFE MEMBER 1976
-
BorisThespider
- Member
- Posts: 50
- Joined: April 21st, 2011, 4:47 am
- Location: Carroll County, Ohio
Re: Trigger problem with PA-63
normsutton wrote:Boris
the trigger return spring tail should be on the bottom of the trigger bar, it holds it up not down
NORM
Right, it rides in the channel at the bottom of the trigger bar. I'm not sure what I said to imply that I thought it was reversed, but that was not the intent. The spring is in place, and works most of the time. I just think it lacks sufficient power for pushing the trigger bar up the way it is supposed to.
Turning the gun upside-down was just to test whether the little extra boost in power the spring got from gravity would have any effect. It had a much greater effect than I even thought it could. No failures after a couple dozen dry fires. I would have gone longer but the process of pulling back the hammer, pulling the trigger, and blocking the hammer is a bit tiring after only a short time.
Looks like I fixed the problem. After all this, I bought a P64 trigger spring from Norm, hoping to reshape it correctly. Unfortunately, I flubbed that all up. Fortunately, I am obnoxiously stubborn. I took to reshaping the original, thinking "can't really make it worse". I gently removed the bend that turns the spring toward the frame. Then I bent the 'v' to a sharper angle and made the bend that goes up into the trigger bar straighter so it sits inside the trigger bar better. It looks almost the same as before, as the adjustments were rather subtle. I'm not sure exactly what the problem was - maybe the spring was rubbing against the frame, or maybe the little bit of extra leverage gained from the sharper 'v' helped. Could be a combination of the two. Whatever the case, it hasn't failed me since I made those adjustments. Will give it a live trial tomorrow and we'll see how it holds up.
FINAL EDIT - Took the PA-63 out for some live-fire drills. No malfunctions. Well, I don't count the light primer strike on DA I had because that could have been a freak primer problem, or a problem with the weaker hammer spring. Either way, it is completely unrelated to the problem I was having. Now, I only got to go through one box of ammo today, so it may still be a little too early, but I think we're good. When I was having problems, it was very frequent. Thanks for bearing with this rather selfish thread.