Handguns in a Stress Situation

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abwehr
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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by abwehr » April 20th, 2006, 6:02 am

Guys,

We have all discussed the type pistol we use for CCW, and how many of us were trained. Below is a report that was provided by "mungo" which gives some good information on Police Skill Development in Survival Stress Responses. I felt this would be some good information to keep.

Thanks go to "mungo" for providing this to us and thanks go to the Flint Township Police Department for writing this information.

http://tinyurl.com/m57vy
Last edited by abwehr on April 20th, 2006, 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by himmel » April 20th, 2006, 8:56 am

Ya know, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it seems a bit contrary to the stuff I was told over and over again in my CCH class--"we do what we are trained to do" or "we do what we practice"...Those statements were accompanied by tales of dead police officers with spent brass in their hands, (officers always picked up their brass on the training range after each clip emptied) dead officers with their weapons in their holsters killed by "double tap" survivors (officers trained on the range to shoot twice, then the weapon holstered), etc. Any comments? I suspect some of these tales might classify as "urban legends" myself, but others, maybe not... I found the part that I read very interesting ....

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by herrmannek » April 20th, 2006, 12:33 pm


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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by dutchuncle » April 22nd, 2006, 6:15 pm

Interesting article, and apparently well researched. I think its important to consider the psychological aspects of self-defense situations. I have only been in a few situations that had potential for some serious social work, and I well remember the emotional reactions during and after the events. Anyone who's ever had an adrenalin rush knows that all the range practice in the world can't prepare one for a stressfire scenario. At least reading this helps familiarize us with what to expect.

As an aside, I just contributed a thread on Modifications and Fixes that addresses one of the issues inherent in self defense scenarios: the importance of a safe (DAO) trigger pull.

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by abwehr » April 23rd, 2006, 4:49 am

dutchuncle,

You are right about the adrenalin rush, it does strange things to your mind too. I have been in a few "stressfull" situations myself. What I now rememer most is how things happened in slow motion as the situation was unfolding. I had time to think and plan for something that only lasted seconds. The mind is a wonderful thing, but sure is confusing sometime!

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by butch50 » April 23rd, 2006, 8:31 am

When adrenaline kicks in thinking generally kicks out and reaction sets in. I remember seeing a video of two guys in a protracted shoot out - one would charge the other shooting wildly - sometimes into the ground right in front of his own feet, then run out of bullets and run back behind cover - then the other would try it. They shot up a lot of rounds and never hit each other from nearly point blank range. It was almost funny.

During war there is a huge number of rounds fired for every hit. Even during deer hunting people have been known to get buck fever and do foolish things - we have all heard or seen those stories.

Adrenaline takes away your fine motor skills - so practicing target shooting probably won't help out all that much for stress situation shooting. It will help to be generally familiar with what you can expect the gun to feel and sound like, but I think that is about it. The oft made argument that shot placement means more than caliber for stopping power is true physically, but adrenaline will just about guarantee that shot placement isn't going to be accurate under most circumstances.

I assume that if I ever have to fire my gun in self defense that only at nearly point blank range will I hit my target. I assume that because I have been in stressful situations and I don't honestly believe that there will be time to take up a range style stance and carefully aim and gently squeeze off a shot, nor that I will be able to with the adrenaline. Most likely it will be some kind of very fast and very ugly shooting, primarily point and jerk the trigger. It will be awkward, ugly and happen very very fast, and then it will be just as suddenly over.

That is what I expect of myself, and I believe it is a realistic expectation. Folks who expect that they will have the time and ability to be able to deliver a nice tight shot group are, in my opinion, fantasizing. Only with extensive and continuous training that is as realistic as possible, would you have a chance to perform up to those fantasy levels. The kind of training that Swat teams and anti-terrorist teams are constantly engaged in. And then only if you are the "right" kind of person to handle it, not everyone even with that kind of training would be good at it. Not everyone has the talent and mind set for it - much like professional atheletes, not everyone can be one.
Last edited by butch50 on April 23rd, 2006, 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by p64 » April 23rd, 2006, 4:00 pm

abwehr

I agree. In stressfull situations things do move in slow motion. I've actually seen some amazing things myself. One was a lug nut off a firetruck coming loose in a shop, it shot a good 30-40 feet through the air and took a chunk of concrete out of the back wall. I saw it all in slow motion as I was very close by when it happened. I saw the nut moving almost in a jagged stop motion type of way, I saw it hit the wall and saw the concrete explode from the wall where the nut hit. It took forever even though in reality it was a very short period of time.
I've run into other stressfull situations as well and they all came out ok as everything did seem to be slow motion and gave me time to react without even thinking about it.

Amazing thing the mind is.

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by tunnelrat » April 24th, 2006, 3:41 pm

During war there is a huge number of rounds fired for every hit.
One shot/ one kill might work for snipers or LRRP teams, but us old hard-line infantry types used to do a lot of "recon by fire". Is there a gook behind that tree? I dunno, I could either run up and ask, or I could simply fire two or three rounds into the suspicious place and see what pops up.

I recall one book that said in Vietnam it took an AVERAGE of 50,000 rounds to kill one enemy soldier. That sounds about right. I would much rather risk a few rounds of ammunition than have to have one of my troops go and check things out in person.

In fact often when we would take incoming fire, I wouldn't send my guys to deal with it at all. Rather I would get on the radio and call in the artillery, the Air Force, and the Navy. It might have been a bit more expensive to take out a sniper with a 1,000 pound bomb, but it was effective, and it didn't get my guys killed.

Not only so, but there was also the principle of fire superiority. If you throw enough ammunition in your enemy's direction, he'll have to keep his head down. It's like playing field position football: you don't have to score each time you get the ball; you just keep your opponent playing in his end of the field.

Once you start to attain fire superiority, your enemy puts his head down and cannot fire effectively, so we can fire more and he can fire less. We would overwhelm them with our fire and eventually were able to maneuver in to make a kill. That takes a bit more ammunition than one-shot-one-kill. As much as I might admire the One Shot principle, I was never in a position to see it work.

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by himmel » April 24th, 2006, 6:14 pm

Abwehr, p64--I know when I laid over my motorcycle on an icy road, I had "time" to consider just how far to let myself slide, and when I needed to do something about it before I went into the other traffic lane--Similarly, when i was thrown off the hood of a car I was riding on (in college, doin' stupid things)--same situation, I consciously decided to let myself roll a few times to dissipate the energy of the fall, then I decided I had to stop rolling before I went into the traffic lane on the other side. Both incidents, of course, were over in mere seconds. The slow-motion thing is for real--I only hope it will kick in if I ever run into a real SD situation...Fascinating indeed...

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by p64 » April 24th, 2006, 7:11 pm

himmel
It will. It has happened to me in several (non firearms related) SD situations. I would say I've experienced this "heightened awareness?" at least a dozen times in my life. I do feel without knowing how or why or what but that it does take something out of you though.
It might save your bacon now, but at what cost?

Just my opinions and thoughts.

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by tunnelrat » April 25th, 2006, 6:50 am


I do feel without knowing how or why or what but that it does take something out of you though.
It might save your bacon now, but at what cost?
Yeah, Janis Joplin used to sing about taking a piece of her heart. I wonder if such things as this don't take a chunk out of your soul.

I do know that nearly 40 years later there are some things that just don't seem to want to go away...

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by papabear » April 25th, 2006, 7:29 am

tunnelrat, nearly 38 years ago it not only took a chunk out of my soul but left a profound sense of guilt, it never goes away, I think most of us just learn to live with it. "All Gave Some, Some Gave All"
POINT SHOOTER

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by p64 » April 25th, 2006, 7:50 am

papabear

Some of us also served and we do remember those who went before us as well as those currently serving.
Yeah, I do support our troops, writing letters and sending care packages to those without families, much better than just a magnetic ribbon on the car.

Thanks!

Beat Navy!
George
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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by kempin » April 25th, 2006, 1:28 pm

Hey guys,

Don't mean to butt in on the conversation. I'm just one of the many who wants to offer a respectful and sincere "thanks" for your service. Seriously. I am grateful to you and the other brave men like you who risked so much in the service of others.

Christ is Risen!

God bless and straight shooting,

-Kempin

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Handguns in a Stress Situation

Post by butch50 » April 25th, 2006, 2:15 pm

I have been in dire situations where that slow motion thing kicked in, and I have been in dire situations where it did not kick in.

It is not reliable, and probably in most cases it is not even real, but a false perception after the fact.

Counting on it would be a serious mistake. It is akin to expecting the laws of physics to change momentarily for your benefit. Best to be prepared for fast confusing actions and to have your response honed down to the simplest and lowest common denominator possible.

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