9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

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erich
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erich » July 10th, 2006, 3:33 pm

Pity that you're only a state and a half a way . . . but they're big states! I was digging around in the garage yesterday and found several boxes of the S&B .32 FMJs, which I've found to run pretty fast.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by jhm123 » July 14th, 2006, 9:18 pm

Evenin' Folks:

Read some good stuff through this thread. I've done ad-hoc testing w/ wet-pack, jello bag's, etc. & the stuff you hear about hollow-point ammo needing >800fps to expand is pretty much true...I'd say 830-850fps to be safe. Almost no non +P .38 Spec round will hit 850fps w/ any reasonable bullet weight & the heavier +P's in a snubbie have it tough. The 135gr. GD +P round mentioned earlier was brought about specifically to address this.

I'm a huge fan of the .38 Special (even have one as the bed-side choice), but IMO heavier bullets are best & choices in those are limited in snub's while trying to keep velocity & penetration acceptable. The 135gr. GD round seems like a great fence-rider, but I'd still like to see a factory 158gr. modern-design HP consistently make 850fps from a 2" barrel.

I think the 9x18 is a great round & the edge over .380 is meaningful enough to matter. ;D 109-115gr. is lighter than I'd like, but velocity is plenty sufficient. Glaser stuff is one thing, but I can't get comfortable w/ the really light "frangible" loads...don't have much faith in adequate penetration. I really need to do more in-depth testing though.

Lest I write a book :o, I'll stop w/ saying that I do think bullet design counts for something. No doubt shot-placement (practice) is paramount, I've seen the difference ammo can make. Though not a parallel example, the difference between a .308 FMJ & Ballistic-Tip round is impressive & even some of the early hollow-point design's (like the "frangible" 30cal. SilverTip bullets); I figure count for something. No .0xx measurement will make up for bad placement, but I'll take the extra insurance if I do my part.

JHM
Last edited by jhm123 on July 14th, 2006, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by nbender » July 14th, 2006, 9:38 pm

erich, that's quite a post. Could I ask your profession? Are you in an emergency room in Chicago? I've never seen anyone state that they have seen so many gunshot wounds, by so many calibers.

jhm, I did some wetpack test on 9x18:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.a ... _ID=163252

I'm not sure the results are real meaningful. The replies to the thread sure weren't. I was looking to see if shooting wetpack, in various forms, could correlate to shooting gelatin. They don't correlate well at all with Golden Loki's results. I asked him for his raw data and he said he doesn't have it. But, I think different rounds react differently to different mediums and it's apples vs oranges when you don't test on people.

No, that didn't advocate testing on people.

Concerning caliber wars, I'm with erich. Practice.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erich » July 17th, 2006, 7:14 pm

Nope, not a doc - I'm an appellate criminal defense attorney. (I haven't seen these wounds - I've worked on the cases.) My office handles almost every murder that happens in my state, so I get to see a lot of OMI reports. I've been doing this particular job for about a dozen years, and then before that I was a prosecutor and before that I worked on some murders as a private investigator for a local trial defense attorney (which is where I got to sit through autopsies - :-X ).
Last edited by erich on July 17th, 2006, 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by nbender » July 17th, 2006, 9:29 pm

Thanks for the background erich.

Impressive resume, Mr. Mason!

Now, of all the posts I've read, on all the 9x18 websites and old discontinued forums, you've posted the first direct envolvement that I've read concerning shootings with this caliber. The only shooting that I know of that gained popularity was of the Seattle prosecuter who was shot with .380 through a 9x18 barrel. I hope you and others don't consider it morbid for me to ask about some details inflicted with this caliber. So I ask.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erich » July 18th, 2006, 10:05 am

I don't know what you want to know. I can think of two 9x18 cases off the top of my head in which several (3 or more) 9x18 rounds went into various points around the victims' chests. The aortas/hearts were clipped, and the victims immediately ceased their aggressive action (they were charging the shooter with clubs) and died.

This is pretty much par for the course with shots hitting the hearts or aortas. The shootee generally ceases aggressive activity and dies, but might be on his feet for as much as two minutes following the shot to the heart (as in one recent case I had where the shooter used a 9x19 Black Talon). Sometimes they drop immediately when hit thusly (as in a recent case where the shootee was struck seven times with 9x17 ball, the last round hitting the aorta and dropping him like a rock - just before he got to the shooter - in this case, several of the shots would have been fatal eventually, but it took the heart shot to stop him).

I've got a meeting to go to, so I don't have time to rack my brain for any other 9x18 shootings right now. Maybe later. Still, all handgun stops that I've seen are pretty much the same - you hit the brain or heart/aorta (which takes adequate penetration and accuracy), and the guy stops. That's all there is to it - no magic bullets or calibers or anything like that. Some calibers seem to lack penetration ability - probably because they don't have enough mass and velocity. Not rocket science, just first-year physics and a little anatomy! ;)

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by himmel » July 18th, 2006, 6:01 pm

Hey another lawyer--what's this neighborhood coming to--LOL! (I can say that, I am one too...)

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by nbender » July 18th, 2006, 7:52 pm

"I don't know what you want to know."

Just the facts.

Thanks for the reply.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erich » July 18th, 2006, 7:59 pm

This lawyer needs to get off his tucchis and buy a P-64, though! ;)

I'll try to remember more "Tales of the 9x18," and I'll put them here if I think of them. I know I've worked on several other 9x18 killings - they really do seem to perform (in the cases I've seen) more like a 9x19 than like a .380 . . . I never would have guessed this, though. :)

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by truth » July 18th, 2006, 8:25 pm

How did it go? "TWICE IN THE CHEST, AND ONE IN THE HEAD" I seem to remember this from the millitary....

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by karlpa » January 30th, 2007, 10:00 pm

The March 2007 issue of Shooting Times (page 58) states"The 9x18 Makarov cartridge produces ballistics similar to the .380 Auto and is so is acceptable as a home-defense round as chambered in such Eastern European pistols as the Russian IJ-70(R)."

"...I also agree that the .380 and .38 Special are adequate personal defense rounds. According to the ballistic tables, typical loads for these two cartridges generate approximately 190 and 250 ft-lbs, respectively, of muzzle energy. Because Makarov performance falls in between at about 220 ft-lbs, I can find no fault with the choice."

It further states, "...you can significantly increase the effectiveness of any personal defense gun by shooting factory jacketed hollowpoint ammo. Hornady offers Makarov ammo loaded with excellent 95-grain XTP bullets. Muzzle velocity approaches 1000 fps, so if you do your part ...your Makarovs should dissuade an intruder from their illegal intentions."

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by nicksterdemus » February 2nd, 2007, 11:03 pm

The new Wolf 120 gnhp that's supposed 2 be here by May claims 275'lb.
Now if Wols Springs will design a steroid spring or 2...............

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by normsutton » February 2nd, 2007, 11:30 pm

nicksterdemus

I don't recommend anything over a 95 grn. bullet in the P-64 or any of the FEG guns

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by nicksterdemus » February 3rd, 2007, 12:28 am

Even if you had a recoil spring strong enough to keep from beating the frame?
Do you feel there are issues w/strength of the 64 chamber 4 that hot a load?

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by normsutton » February 3rd, 2007, 3:31 am

nicksterdemus

YES . The P-64 and all FEG guns weren't designed for anything over a 95grn. bullet we gone over this before on an other thread,
besides that I wouldn't shoot wolf ammo in any cal. in my guns if you paid me ,I have to make living with my hands and eyes

you can take it or leave it


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