9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

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jak47
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by jak47 » March 30th, 2006, 7:32 am

My first P64 is on the way! I too will be interested in the PowRBall results.

jAK-47

erehwesle
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erehwesle » March 30th, 2006, 11:28 pm

well. looking at this, 9 x 17 mak s a serious caliber.

9mm mak?

T

kempin
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by kempin » April 9th, 2006, 3:15 pm

Hey Saands,

You mentioned working up loads for the 95 gr. xtp. Would you mind posting your data? What powder got you that velocity? How well did the lighter loads shoot? Any info would be helpful.

Thanks,

Kempin

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by butch50 » April 18th, 2006, 9:06 am

One small point that really doesn't mean much: A revolver doesn't generate more velocity with a longer barrel the way a rifle does. A rifle has a sealed compression chamber behind the bullet and the hot gasses continue to expand, and thus continue to push the bullet as the bullet is travelling down the barrel.

A revolver though has a large gap that the bullet has to "jump" across. The gases are not in a sealed compression chamber after they leave the cartridge case and no longer push the bullet - so the longer barrel does not provided additional acceleration to the bullet - it provides additional accuracy but that is all. Except maybe for the Russian Moison Nagan pistol, which IIRC pushes the cylinder against the barrel and creates a seal. The bullet in a revolver is travelling as fast as it ever will when it enters the barrel, it relies solely on the gas expansion that takes place in the cartridge case before the bullet exits the cartridge case and allows the gas to escape into the atmosphere.

Perhaps a longer barrel in a semi-auto would provide some additional acceleration because it has some seal, but probably not because the gas pushes the slide back and that would use up the extra energy.

Again, a small unimportant distinction, but the snub nose got mentioned a lot.

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steve98664
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by steve98664 » May 11th, 2006, 2:16 am

I like data on this topic!

Here are 2 of my favorites. Unfortunately, the expansion test ammo is mostly not available.

http://makarov.com/tech.html

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm

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abwehr
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by abwehr » May 11th, 2006, 2:58 am

steve98664,

Thanks for posting the links to these websites! I have read the info from makarov.com, but had not seen the expansion tests. The bullet path of the 9 x 18 Mak is not bad for this type round. At 80 yds, a head hold should still get a torso hit with the 8" drop. Gut shots are not good, LOL!

I was surprised to see the Barnaul expanded as well as it did, and the Blazer did well. I have never been a "fan" of Blazer's aluminum case ammo. I have had some minor problems with extraction (in other pistols), and just don't care for it.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by hawkerjim » May 11th, 2006, 5:29 pm

Interesting but the first rule in a gun fight is to take a gun.

Hawkerjim

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by bzinggg » May 30th, 2006, 2:52 pm

I've been shooting the Silver Bear 115gr JHP, and it seems to be a little hotter than the FMJs of other brands I have experience with. Does anyone have a chrono reading on the Silver Bear 115gr JHP?

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tunnelrat
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by tunnelrat » June 3rd, 2006, 7:33 am

Does anyone have a chrono reading on the Silver Bear 115gr JHP?
I think it runs at about 1050 fps. However, I do not know the barrel length of the test pistol.

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by bzinggg » June 8th, 2006, 3:24 am

Thanks, tunnelrat!

With 115 grains, I think that baby would hit pretty hard.

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erich
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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erich » July 6th, 2006, 10:47 am

Hi folks. First post here, though I recognize some of the names from around the 'net. Nice place!

I don't know about jello tests, though I consider them when I'm looking at "will a given round be likely to penetrate a decent distance?" However, I've worked in some capacity on over 150 handgun killings, and I've seen a lot of OMI reports. No two shootings are the same, of course, so it's difficult to compare the effectiveness of one caliber to that of another.

I have worked on several killings involving 9x18s and several involving .38 specials. I've also worked on shootings in which those rounds did not kill.

Stopping someone with a handgun seems to require that you hit either the brain or heart/aorta (the heart is rarely hit - the aorta quite often in killings). The spine is supposed to work, too, but I've never once (that I can recall) seen a case in which someone hit the spine - seems to be an unrealistically tough target unless you're a Soviet officer executing a helpless and immobile underling. While you can kill someone eventually with a lung or a liver shot, in the cases I've worked on such shots haven't stopped the target's aggressive action. A brain shot or an aorta shot generally will (although heart-shot people may nevertheless remain on their feet for up to two minutes after taking the fatal bullet . . . but I've never seen a case in which they still had fight in them more than a few seconds after the shot).

All this business you read about hollowpoints and energy transfer just don't seem to matter. What matters in terms of actually stopping someone with a handgun is hitting the correct area and having a bullet that penetrates sufficiently to damage it. (This is why I tell people that they're far better off studying _Gray's Anatomy_ than arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a given hollowpoint. ;) ) You'd be surprised at how many times the arm or hand of the target gets penetrated before the round enters the chest cavity - due to the natural instinct to shield oneself, I suppose - and this means that a bullet won't necessarily just need to penetrate the three or four inches of bone and gristle protecting the heart - you may well need to penetrate the bone of the arm as well. And a shooter should know exactly where the heart sits in the chest cavity so he can hit it (if he wants to be effective).

Now, while I've worked on killings involving .22 lrs, .25 acps, .32 S&Ws, .32 acps, .380s (lots), there does seem to be a breaking point at which some calibers are notably more able to perform as needed - to hit accurately enough and penetrate far enough. In the cases I've seen, .38s and 9x18s (as well as .357s, 9x19s, .40s, and .45s) seem to have enough oomph to get the job done.

FWIW, a famous nationally renowned pathologist told me that after thousands of handgun death autopsies he was unable to discern any difference at all in the wound channels left by .38s, .357s, .40s, 9x19s, or .45s, whether FMJ or JHP. Based on its performance in the cases that I've seen, I would assume that 9x18 would probably be on that list as well (and I note that .380 was not on the list).

In any event, I think it's a case of "tastes great"/"less filling" with the .38 vs. the 9x18. They'll both work fine . . . if you put the bullets in the right place. If you don't . . . they won't (but then a .44 mag won't work if you don't put the bullets in the right place, either). :)

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by himmel » July 6th, 2006, 11:41 am

Wow--nice post! thanks---

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by himmel » July 6th, 2006, 11:46 am

Two things to consider maybe--One guy told me that the way to stop someone is either to damage the hydraulics (ie the heart) or the electronics (ie the brain/ spine) Electronics work faster but are harder to hit--The other thing is, as the "good guys" we presumably aren't necessarily interested in killing so much as stopping the attack, which in many cases means just driving off the attacker. I think the 9 Mak is certainly more than adequate for that task...and I hope the .32 ACP is, since that's what I usually carry myself (at least until my son's grips business dries up, then I will start toting the CZAK more regularly... ;) )

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by erich » July 6th, 2006, 3:28 pm

Right, we good guys are interested in stopping an attack; this is why I talk in terms of stopping the aggression as opposed to killing. I think your explanation of why it works makes good practical sense.

I think your .32 acp will work if placed properly. If I were you, I'd buy some hot European FMJs (S&B seems to clock well - wish you were around here, I'd just give you a couple of boxes) for hopefully adequate penetration, practice to where you're really accurate with it, and - seriously - look at Gray's Anatomy to determine exactly what you're aiming for. Here are a couple of anatomy links to get you started -

http://www.bartleby.com/107/
http://www.anatomyatlases.org/atlasofan ... ndex.shtml

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9mm mak stopping power vs 38 special?

Post by himmel » July 10th, 2006, 1:43 pm

Too bad I'm not there to take advantage--.32 is kind of pricey for me, I can usually find 9 mak cheaper. One of the gunshops here just got in a bunch of Fiocchi .32 acp with a 73-grain FMJ--I'm planning on getting some soon.

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