Firearm finishes

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BorisThespider
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Firearm finishes

Post by BorisThespider »

Hey guys, I'm just looking for some info on finishes for my CZ-82. I've looked around a lot, and here are the available options,as far as I know:

Cold Blue
Hot Blue
Duracoat
Cerakote
Rust Blue
Browning
Plating (especially hard chrome)


I'm just hoping some of you guys can give me some direction. Obviously, I don't want to spend a ton (which pretty much eliminates anything I can't do myself). I also want it to look good, like a gun - which makes me question Duracoat and Cerakote. Browning is mostly for muzzle loaders and antiques as far as I know. Now, for me, I think that leaves Cold Blue, Hot Blue (but that one's kinda dangerous iirc), Rust Blue, and *maybe* Duracoat or Cerakote.

So my questions are as follows: Which finishes tend to look the best? Which are most durable? Which are easiest to apply (excluding the work of tear-down, which I intend to do anyhow)? Is there anything else you can tell me about any of the finishes on the list? Are there any finishes that I missed?

ETA: I believe I read that Norm uses ceramic auto (engine?) paint as well. Can anyone tell me anything about that?
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lklawson
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by lklawson »

There are about a solid half-dozen different "paint" type gun refinishes. CeraKote, GunKote, Moly Resin, Duracoat, and several others that I can't remember. Different people advocate for different ones.

There are also a few "proprietary" "trade secret" type spray on finishes which are not available to the DIYer, such as Birdsong Black-T and Green-T finishes (http://www.black-t.com/) or CCR's Cera-Hide (http://www.ccrrefinishing.com/information.html).

In the Cold Blue arena, there are an equal number of different finishes, also each with their advocates. These include liquids, pastes, and gels. I've used Birchwood Casey liquid with good results on one gun and mediocre results on another. I suspect that different formulations/products work better/worse with different steels used on various guns and you may have to experiment with various products before finding one you like. I've also had a strong recommendation for the Blue Wonder not-quite Cold Blue finish (http://bluewonder.us/BlueWonderGunBlue.html).

There are any number of different platings but the two most common are Nickel and Chrome. In nickel, you have the choice of electroless nickel and electro-plate nickel. I don't know that one is better than the other, but the only gun I've had nickeled has been with CCR's CPII. I've been told that electroless nickel plating is somewhat preferable to electroplate nickel because in standard electroplating, first a layer of copper must be deposited on the steel in order to properly deposit the nickel and that this middle layer of copper is vulnerable to standard copper-cleaning products often used in barrels. The use of these copper removal products on electroplated nickel, apparently, could lead to erosion of the middle copper layer which could lead to the nickel flaking off. Of course, the answer is to not use a copper remover on your electroplate, but that may not always be an option. Hard Chrome is pretty expensive to have done, from what I can tell but there are some services out there. A friend swears by Mahovsky "Meta Life" (http://www.mahovskysmetalife.com/Metali ... ge%202.htm). Also available in "Black Hard Chrome." Besides Nickel and Hard Chrome, there is also Titanium (I think it's actually Titanium dioxide or some such). You can get it in Gold, Black, and "Rainbow." I think the rainbow is really nifty looking but many "real men" think it looks girly or pimptastic. :P

As for the Engine Paint, there are a lot of mixed results with that. Some seem to work out OK and others not so much. My Meta Life friend tried engine paint and it didn't work. He used the 2000 degree paint not 500 degree paint and couldn't properly cure it. There's also "Brake Caliper" paint and "Header Paint" occasionally suggested. All seem to have the same ups and downs.

Home Hot Bluing scares the bejeezess out of me. Lots of caustics and opportunities for me to show up in the "Cautionary Tales" corner of the internet.

I haven't seen you mention home Parkerizing/Phosphating. A lot of folks seem to be real happy with this. The chemicals a little bit more expensive than "Drain-O" but there seems to be few opportunities for things to "go horribly, horribly wrong."

Another friend of mine swears Black Oxiding. Apparently, according to him, this is really easy, comparatively inexpensive, and fairly durable. I'm thinking of trying my hand at it for my PF9 bbl.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
BorisThespider
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by BorisThespider »

Wow, that's a good amount of information!

I agree regarding Home Hot Blueing. Seems awfully scary and it's not really the most often-suggested option anyhow. I did forget about Parkerizing and Phosphating. Since I typed this up, I found a company that does black nitride(ing?). I've only seen one person suggest/recommend it, but it is a local, and a local company: http://www.blacknitride.com/index.html

I wish I could really see a lot of these finishes up close. Appearance is important, but not as much as durability because the CZ-82 is my EDC. I don't want to have to refinish in a few months because of frequent holstering/unholstering. I have seen mixed results from people regarding most of these options, aside from chroming - and that's the one that's ruled out by price (plus a "shiny" carry gun isn't my first choice).

I don't know anything about phosphating/parkerizing. I don't suppose anyone has a good source of information about it - like how to do it and the end results?

I do like the look of rust blueing. Assuming you go through the cycle enough times, the end results make all the work well worth it. I just don't know about the durability of it. Though I've seen some that don't look as good (I assume they quit too early), here's a great link to a rust blue on a cz-82: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... 5&t=102507

ETA: I just did a fair bit of reading on rust blueing, and I guess I had forgotten that it's supposed to be about the most durable finish there is. In fact, any other blueing method is considered a shortcut. It's labor-intensive (keep a watchful eye and run several cycles), but cheap and nearly fool-proof. I'm really leaning toward this again. Holding off until after the gun show next weekend to see what the "gun budget" allows. May even pick up another piece I'll want to refinish as well (hoping for a sweet deal on a P64 or 1911).
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lklawson
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by lklawson »

BorisThespider wrote:Since I typed this up, I found a company that does black nitride(ing?). I've only seen one person suggest/recommend it, but it is a local, and a local company: http://www.blacknitride.com/index.html
Nitriding is supposed to be really good. Glock's "Tenifer" process is a type of nitriding.
I wish I could really see a lot of these finishes up close. Appearance is important, but not as much as durability because the CZ-82 is my EDC. I don't want to have to refinish in a few months because of frequent holstering/unholstering. I have seen mixed results from people regarding most of these options, aside from chroming - and that's the one that's ruled out by price (plus a "shiny" carry gun isn't my first choice).
Everything wears eventually.
I don't know anything about phosphating/parkerizing. I don't suppose anyone has a good source of information about it - like how to do it and the end results?
As best as I understand it, the biggest benefit of parking is that it creates a hard and extremely porous surface which sponges up oil and grease magnificently, thus creating a very good rust barrier.

The first several hits on google give decent info: https://www.google.com/search?q=parkeri ... =firefox-a
I do like the look of rust blueing. Assuming you go through the cycle enough times, the end results make all the work well worth it. I just don't know about the durability of it. Though I've seen some that don't look as good (I assume they quit too early), here's a great link to a rust blue on a cz-82: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... 5&t=102507

ETA: I just did a fair bit of reading on rust blueing, and I guess I had forgotten that it's supposed to be about the most durable finish there is. In fact, any other blueing method is considered a shortcut. It's labor-intensive (keep a watchful eye and run several cycles), but cheap and nearly fool-proof. I'm really leaning toward this again. Holding off until after the gun show next weekend to see what the "gun budget" allows. May even pick up another piece I'll want to refinish as well (hoping for a sweet deal on a P64 or 1911).
Cool.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
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dfunk
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by dfunk »

Boris,
The link you posted to the nitriding place is for H&M - they're used by S&W and Beretta for black nitriding. I'd use them in a heartbeat.

I see and hear wonderful things about Cerakoat, but I also hear that it takes an experienced hand to get it perfectly even without flaws (prep work is critical with these types of finishes).
BorisThespider
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by BorisThespider »

dfunk wrote:Boris,
The link you posted to the nitriding place is for H&M - they're used by S&W and Beretta for black nitriding. I'd use them in a heartbeat.
Had no idea they were such "bigshots." They were mentioned on a local forum by one of the members. I may contact them to see what they'll charge. May not be too bad if I can drop off and pick up in person -- ought to save a few bucks in shipping anyhow. I'm certain it won't be anywhere near as inexpensive as the home options, but if it's really that good, it may be worth it.
dfunk wrote:I see and hear wonderful things about Cerakoat, but I also hear that it takes an experienced hand to get it perfectly even without flaws (prep work is critical with these types of finishes).
Yeah, I've heard stories of doing the same piece a few times because it didn't come out right. Also, most of the external coatings just don't look right to me. Like a painted gun would I guess. I don't mean to come off as snobbish of course; it's just a matter of personal taste.
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dfunk
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by dfunk »

Cerakote

Image

Image
BorisThespider
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by BorisThespider »

Yeah, that cerakote looks alright, but it just doesn't do it for me. Like a polymer frame, I don't have anything against it; I just don't like it.
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by visero »

I parked a Reminton 1100M years ago (1990s) and until it went thur Ike down here in Houston you never had to worry about rust.

It was very simple, at the time I worked at an aircraft shop.
I took it apart, bead blasted the whole thing (handled it with clean paper towels not to get any oil from my fingers on it and went down the street to a camshaft shop.

They had 3 tanks, one with hot water to heat it up to last than a boil and to remove any oil, the second tanks was the parkerizing tank the was again, less than boiling. 5 mins in there, and then a tank to neturalize the parkerizing which I can't remember what was in that. then sparyed all the parts down with some oil like WD40.

It was left in a soft gun case and got soaked during Ike but the majority of the finish (85%) was still good.

Parkerizing provides lubrication between parts too that's why the park camshafts because there's little or no oil duing startup. My gunsmith said his shop parked industrial clutch plates as well.
69murray
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by 69murray »

If you've got a bit of patience and can boil water, I'd recommend Rust Bluing wholeheartedly. Here are a couple of my recent projects:

Image
2012-11-04_13-01-45_491 by marklmurray, on Flickr

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CZ_82-01r by 69murray, on Flickr
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Curly1
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by Curly1 »

Those came out nice Murray
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by dalek »

69murray wrote:If you've got a bit of patience and can boil water, I'd recommend Rust Bluing wholeheartedly.
Boiling water? That might disqualify me; I should not be allowed in the kitchen. Flames and boiling oil all over the place? Check.
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lklawson
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by lklawson »

Not to necro-thread, but I ended up trying my hand at Rust Bluing. I detailed the process in this thread: http://www.thektog.org/forum/f99/if-i-c ... oo-257493/

The synopsis is that it is darn near idiot proof and the results are really nice. There are a few key places where you can screw up but if you follow the directions you'll get great results. The biggest gotchas are, apparently, keep your surfaces clean of any oil or contaminants. That means degrease everything from the part you're bluing to the steel wool you're carding with and use distilled or rain water (not tap water, or even filtered water).

If you do that, you can get this:
Image
Image
Image

out of this:
Image

Super simple. Even a boob like me can do it (and did). I'm so encouraged that I'm going to do two or three more handgun barrels and maybe refinish the slides on my P64 and P83.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
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Re: Firearm finishes

Post by 69murray »

Awesome job, Kirk. No Kel-Tec ever looked that good from the factory!

It really is almost fool-proof (and I should know!). I've taken to trying to find good guns with ugly finishes just so I can 'fix' them. I'm completing an old Browning A5 16 Ga and I'm just starting an heavily pitted Smith&Wesson Model 10 snub.

You're right, if it's any more than a touch-up, cold blue is no longer an option anymore.
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