Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

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kilt1irono
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Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

I am a new owner. I read this forum months before buying, which convinced me to buy my own P-64. In fact, I got the wife and 3 other friends to buy them, too.

Here is my range report. Shot (2) magazines, no problems. I was SO happy with the accuracy, I stopped while I was ahead.

Went to the range with two other new owners, and that is when the problem started, to my dismay. It would only fire in SA. The rounds fed, they ejected properly, but the gun returned each fire to a "limp trigger" condition. I could cock it to SA, and fire the round.

I went back to the range today, and the same thing was occurring. My friend's P-64 fired flawlessly.

So, I put a DUMMY round into the magazine, ahead of the LIVE rounds. I took the safety off, chambered the round, and got DA and SA trigger. I ejected the DUMMY Round, which chambered the LIVE round, and got the "limp trigger" condition, again. Cocked the trigger to SA, fired the round, and the case ejected, but returned the trigger to "limp."

DUMMY Round = OK. LIVE Round = "limp trigger."

Can you fine group of P-64 owners help out a brother?

Many thanks to any and all help!

Peter
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juniustaylor
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by juniustaylor »

Clean the gun well if you have not.
Check the condition of your springs. Your trigger spring inside the frame by not be allowing the trigger bar to engage the hammer spur deal when trying DA. As far as the dummy round working, I'm not sure. If it worked one day, but not today, then it's possible that something came undone. Check to see if the trigger bar has any spring-back to it with the slide off.
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normsutton
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by normsutton »

kilt1irono
it sound to me that you have a dirty chamber,take some denatured alcohol, and a bore brush , and scrub the chamber ,
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2593

NORM
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kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

juniustaylor wrote:Clean the gun well if you have not.
Check the condition of your springs. Your trigger spring inside the frame by not be allowing the trigger bar to engage the hammer spur deal when trying DA. As far as the dummy round working, I'm not sure. If it worked one day, but not today, then it's possible that something came undone. Check to see if the trigger bar has any spring-back to it with the slide off.

juniustaylor ---

I will clean it again. I will get the "pictorial dis-assembly" out for reference, and look for those parts and operations you mention, and report back on what I find.

I cannot get to the range today, but will make an effort to go tomorrow, to test the fix.

Thanks!

Peter
kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

normsutton wrote:kilt1irono
it sound to me that you have a dirty chamber,take some denatured alcohol, and a bore brush , and scrub the chamber ,
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2593

NORM

Will do! thx ;-)
kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

Okay, guys -- I went (finally) back to the range, after the chamber-cleaning procedure with Denatured Alcohol. I also watched the Trigger Bar movement when the Safety is engaged, and disengaged.

[I want to include one event while I was observing, disassembling, lubing, testing. The Trigger Bar return spring(?) came off the grooved stud(?) of the Trigger Bar (it is next the the pivot stud of the Trigger Bar). I was able to get it back on. I reattached the plastic grips, being careful of alignment and over-tightening.]

Still have the same problem.

For comparison, I took the wife's pistol, and eyeballed everything I could in a side-by-side comparison, then loaded hers, and fired a full magazine without a hitch.

I am not one to shy away from a challenge, but I am befuddled on why the "dummy" (inert, made of metal) round chambers, and delivers both the DA and the SA trigger action, but I do not get it with live rounds. I stack the magazine to have the dummy round after the live round. I fire the live round, after having to cock the the hammer to SA, the casing ejects, the dummy round chambers, but the slide did not place the pistol trigger into SA. However, I pull the trigger on the dummy round, I do get DA, and I can cock it and get SA. Repeatedly.

I wanted to be thorough in my description of what is happening, so as to help you wonderful people try to help me.

When this problem is solved, I will document everything, so I (we) can help others with this WEIRD problem.

Peter
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by JAGGUY »

I had this exact situation on one of my P64's. Didn't know it had a problem until I took it to the range.

I looked at one of the other p64's that worked correctly and saw that if I pulled back the slide just a little I could duplicate the problem on that one. I checked the length on my dummy rounds and it was at the minimum length, a schosh shorter than the loaded Brown Bear I usually shoot.

I looked closely how the action worked between the 2 guns and decided the disconnector on the problem pistol needed to be adjusted so it wouldn't disconnect too soon.
Took a jewelers file to the disconnector where the disconnector contacts the slide and took off a little material at a at time testing it with a dummy made from an unfired factory shell until I got it to work.
Note this however, if you take off too much material it may fire "out of battery" so test often and stop as soon as it starts to work properly.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, it's easier to do than to put into words for me!
Also, my only 'smithing knowledge comes from the "WECSOGS" so I'm not a pro but a tinker'er!

Just observe the action closely and it should be obvious how it works.

Oh, and you said you cleaned the chamber well, but double check to see it there isn't something in there keeping the shell from going into battery fully. I took a 40 cal brass brush chucked in a drill motor and scrubbed at low speed to make sure the chamber was completely clean. Didn't make any difference on mine, so I needed to get more radical.

Good luck!
Last edited by JAGGUY on October 22nd, 2011, 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

JAGGUY ---

Thank you.

I looked up the part. I see where it is, so I'll look at the movement of mine vs. the wife's pistol, to see if I understand where you are directing me to use the fine file, a little at a time.

You mentioned you made a dummy round out of an unfired round? Did I miss something there (sounds dangerous) Or, my reading comprehension is lacking ;-)

Peter
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by JAGGUY »

"You mentioned you made a dummy round out of an unfired round? Did I miss something there (sounds dangerous) Or, my reading comprehension is lacking ;-)"

I reload for the 9x18, so it is a simple matter of pulling the bullet, dumping the powder, popping the primer and re-assembling...
kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

JAGGUY ---

Perfect explanation. I forgot about reloading!

I have a question -- which part gets "filed" where they touch?

I wish I could share a picture with you.

Peter
JAGGUY
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by JAGGUY »

OK, apology's are in order....I shouldn't try to explain something I did a year ago off the top of my head. I'm too old to trust my CRS won't kick in.

I changed the above description of what I did to what I actually did. See the picture...

Image

The area marked in red is where the disconnector contacts the slide and determines whether the action is in battery or not. On mine I removed a little material there to get the trigger to operate properly.
When comparing my 2 P64's this area was shaped differently between the two, the one that didn't work properly was longer at this place on the disconnector. When the slide is pulled back it hits the disconnector at this point. If the slide hits it too soon it disconnects the trigger...

The area marked in blue is where I used the red rouge/oil paste to smooth the trigger pull...

Sorry about the confusion! Hope this helps.

-greg
kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

Greg!

You are awesome. I am a newbie for this firearm, but the help you give me (and others get from members here) is why I made the purchase of a P64 -- and had (4) friends get them, too.

The picture is great!

How do I add a picture to a reply on this site?

Peter ;-)
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juniustaylor
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by juniustaylor »

Peter, to add photos is relatively easy. Find the picture you want to insert on the web or upload to a free Photobucket.com account. Facebook photos also work if you have a facebook account. Copy the entire image address ie 'www.yourwebsite.com/image.jpg' Then when you want to insert it in your reply type [img ][/img]. Paste the link between those two sets of brackets. Don't include the space that I put in the first bracket, I had to put that in there so it would show up. That will put the picture on the reply. Hope this helps.

Otherwise, copy the image link. Then go to the main reply editor. Select the button at the top that says "Img". It will automatically put these brackets in for you and put the cursor between then. You just have to press Ctrl + V on the keyboard to paste the link between them. Either way will work.
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kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

juniustaylor ---

Thank you for the steps to place a picture into a reply.

I will get a camera, and take a picture set of what I found trying to solve my pistol problem.

Peter
kilt1irono
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Re: Trigger responds fully w/ Dummy Round, but not LIVE Ammo

Post by kilt1irono »

JAGGUY ---

Greg!

I tried the filing method, a little at home, and took it to the range this morning.

No change. So, I did some more filing at the range. No change.

However, I did notice something. First, I must tell you I shoot left-handed. Okay, when attempting to fire a chambered round, and not having the trigger do anything, I 'pulled' the trigger to the LEFT, and got some resistance -- like it was trying to engage DA. The more forcefully I 'pulled' the trigger to the LEFT, it did engage the DA. But it didn't fire. I removed the mag, emptied the chamber, and checked the round. There was a dimple in the primer.

With a maximum side-ward 'pull' to the LEFT of the trigger, while pulling the trigger back, I fired a round.

I examined the pistol from the top, put pressure on the trigger to the LEFT, and noticed the action of the trigger bar. This flexes the trigger bar.

I feel like there is a solution to my problem somewhere there!

Peter
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