Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Mods and Fixes by P-64 users...
Ketchman
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Ketchman » November 13th, 2017, 1:44 am

The P64 is an extremely well made sidearm, better than a large number of currently produced weapons, however, how the hammer / trigger bar / sear design got approved is questionable due to the light SA pull, one wonders why a redesign was not done. And it is a bit odd that there seems to be such a difference in SA pull from gun to gun with most being in the 4 pound range.
And by the way, the "let off" point IS the release point, just an FYI.
Don't part out the gun, if your smith cannot find a problem, and you should take it to a smith do not mess with this issue yourself any more, then take it to your local gun shop and trade it in or to another person or a gun show however it can legally be done in your state and tell the other guy what you feel is wrong and let them handle it and feel the SA pull before the sale. But let the smith take it from here.
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GuitarmanNick
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by GuitarmanNick » November 16th, 2017, 1:22 pm

I would suggest taking a good look at both the hammer and sear to be sure that you have positive engagement. From what you have posted, it sounds like the angles in your P-64 are producing negative engagement. This will give you a hair trigger that may not reset or result in multiple rounds being fired on a single trigger pull in some weapons.

If you are not confident in you skills, do not attempt to fix this condition yourself! It requires great care and should not be attempted unless you know what you are doing. If your skills are lacking in this area, a gunsmith would be a wise choice!

If you have some fine stones and have decided to ignore the advice above, you could try to adjust the angles a little at a time until you get a trigger that is safe. In a pinch, you could use some 2000 grit sandpaper supported by a smooth flat surface to achieve the same results.

I have not done trigger work on any P-64's yet, but the principals are the same as any other firearm. Slightly positive engagement will give you a safe but manageable trigger pull. The one that I own has about a 3 lb. SA trigger pull after installing Wolff springs, and the DA is much improved. I consider mine to be safe for CCW and has proven to be reliable using 95 gr. FMJ Red Army Elite.

With a little work, I could probable get the SA trigger pull to half of what it currently is but then I would not consider it safe for CCW.

Kotazo
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Kotazo » November 16th, 2017, 9:21 pm

Thanks for the information. I do a lot of precision work and do have many sizes, shapes and grits of diamond files and other micro tools. After reading more about the various changes made to hammers over the years of manufacture i suspect that the sear does not have positive engagement with the hammer due to improper angles or to some persistent cosmoline or other contaminant partially filling the cut out. I also plan to check if a stiffer sear spring would help.
Worst case is that I will require a new hammer and sear which I am already trying to locate.

Kotazo
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Kotazo » November 16th, 2017, 11:16 pm

GuitarmanNick
You are correct! The contact catches on the hammer where it engages the sear are way out of square and are not parallel to each other. If you look at the attached photos, you can see that the lower engagement point is uneven and the upper engagement slot is sloped down to the right.
The lower slot can be honed straight but the upper may be too far gone.
Attachments
P64 Hammer N1V1.jpg
P64 Hammer N4V2.jpg
P64 Hammer N2V1.jpg

Ketchman
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Ketchman » November 16th, 2017, 11:29 pm

Are there any visible tool marks that would indicate a poorly attempted recut job?
Inspiration: The momentary cessation of stupidity.

"As in all life, the odds are 6 to 5 against"--- Ketchman

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Kotazo
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Kotazo » November 16th, 2017, 11:49 pm

I don't see any evidence of re-cutting. It almost seems as if the part was not properly hardened and has just been malformed from use.
Any ideas where I can get an unused hammer (not one from a cannibalized gun)? I looked on Gun Broker and there are none listed. Ebay has one listed and I am trying to find out if it is an arsenal replacement part.

Ketchman
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Ketchman » November 17th, 2017, 12:16 am

Numrich currently has P-64 parts in stock and has a hammer in stock listed at $35.00
Numrich has quite a few different spare parts.
Inspiration: The momentary cessation of stupidity.

"As in all life, the odds are 6 to 5 against"--- Ketchman

"The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there."
Jeff Cooper

GuitarmanNick
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by GuitarmanNick » November 17th, 2017, 10:40 am

The notch that matters the most is the bottom one. The top is the half-cocked position. I just noticed it looks a little like that slot was not cut completely to the end. I think it would be okay to square that one up since the half-cocked position is not critical to the firing of the gun. The bottom slot looks like an easy fix.

What does the sear look like?

Kotazo
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Kotazo » November 17th, 2017, 11:06 am

The sear looks pretty good but I will be ordering a new one along with a "new" hammer if the repair works.
Since the half-cock is so deformed I am wondering if hammers were occasionally made with soft metal? Since I already have photos of the worn hammer and have my macro lens and strobe set up I will document honing the hammer and could post it if this works.
It seems that this SA trigger issue is relatively common and it would be good to get the information out there on where to look for a solution.
It really is a beautifully made gun so it is surprising/disappointing that the hammer is sometimes defective. The gun has so little wear that I really thought that it was largely unfired when I bought it. Considering the state of the rest of the parts it seems that the hammer fail is definitely very premature or even deformed from the factory.

Kotazo
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Kotazo » November 17th, 2017, 11:27 am

How scarce are hammers? I found one for a good price but need to find out if it's unused stock. A hammer from Numrich is really expensive ($42.50 with shipping) but is new. I hate to spend so much when better prices are available but don't want to lose out altogether if I hesitate.
Of course my fear is that these are the last hammers that will ever be available but I have no experience with parts for these guns.
Should I wait to hear from the cheaper seller or spend the bigger bucks and buy the sure thing? I also contacted the guy on Gun Broker who apparently imports parts to see if he will get any new hammers in stock but again have not heard back.
I'm hoping that P64 parts are a live market and will recover from occasional stock outs. Thanks

Ketchman
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Ketchman » November 17th, 2017, 1:09 pm

I would buy the parts you can get as soon as you can, they tend to dissapear quickly. I personally would go for the new part because of the scarcity of them.
Inspiration: The momentary cessation of stupidity.

"As in all life, the odds are 6 to 5 against"--- Ketchman

"The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there."
Jeff Cooper

Kotazo
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by Kotazo » November 17th, 2017, 5:12 pm

Honed the edge of the full cock notch and cleaned the edge of the sear. Reassembled the gun and took it outside to put 6 rounds through. Even though I barely removed any metal, the hammer would fall when the slide functioned after firing the first round but there was no detonation. The gun required a DA pull to set off the next round. Of the 6 rounds 4 required a DA pull and 2 fired on a controlled SA pull.
Glad I ordered a new hammer and a new sear.

GuitarmanNick
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Re: Please Help -- 1 oz SA trigger pull

Post by GuitarmanNick » November 17th, 2017, 7:39 pm

As for parts, my plan is to buy another P-64. Then I will have all of the spare parts I need.

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