Formal training?

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oakchas
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Formal training?

Post by oakchas »

How many here have had formal training in concealed carry other than what they got when they got their permit?

Somebody asked about "Frontsight" in another thread here and I thought I'd expand on it. I don't personally endorse any particular method... but this really interested me...

Frankly, if I were going to spend money on training.... I would lean strongly to IPD which is based on the C.A.R. system..

I found the concept very interesting.

Since most SD encounters occur within 10' or most HD in 10 Yds. this system is adaptable to both.

There are many fine point nuances to the stances and and grips that you won't get from the vids or pics. And if you should have an instructor nearby, class with live fire requires you bring ~800 rounds. Why? Because when you leave the course you'll be able to accurately place 4-7 rounds in less than 1 sec... .18 second splits are common... That'd be 333 rounds a minute... if your clip was big enough!

This seems to make a LOT of sense to me. Especially useful for clearing a house, as you can use EITHER HAND, and especially beneficial to those with "opposite eye dominance" (i.e. Right handed-left eye dominant).

The stances are a whole lot different than Weaver and modified Weaver. And they warn you that trying to "get it" from the videos and photos might lead to bad habits...

That said, here are some links to action vids.

Fast shootin' from 2 "positions"

The following group was shot from the 2nd "position" seen above (where the gun is away from his chest):
Fast shootin' group

This is the measurements and split times for the group shot above
Still from the Fast Shootin' group

This is a video from the shooters point of view of:
changing hands

And finally; a video of the inventor of the C.A.R. system showing some of the basics... note the hand change speed and the mag change speed late in the vid:
Introduction

Last of all: Links to the home pages of both C.A.R. (for LE/MIL)
And IPD Systems (For us regular folks)
C.A.R.:
Sabre Tactical

IPD Systems:
IPD Systems

Both offer on-line courses that give you a discount on the attended class.

Whadda you guys think?


Charlie
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papabear
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Formal training?

Post by papabear »

oakchas,

First let me say there is no substitute for proper training and practice, the video's in your post are very impressive and I'm sure the second site is well qualified for training purposes. IMO, formal training is just that, and there is a need for formal training , however, neither of these courses train you on how to handle being shot at which is understandable, just as getting a CCW doesn't train you for it either, as a mater or fact neither does being trained in the service at being shot at other than crawling under barbed wire and the sound of .30-06, .308 or .223's flying over your head. My point here is not to criticize these courses, but rather bring out that even Bullseye and IPDA shooting is good practice and training, however, no one is shooting back at you, and you just gotta trust me on this, but it makes all the difference in the world.

My only formal training was in the military, and I'm a vietnam vet that has been shot at more times than I care to mention here, but I have had some excellent training over the years from guys that also have been shot at, LEO's and military, they were teaching techniques that addressed the issue of being shot at. This single fact changes your perspective and view of everything. I have even been shot at in my home by a burglar, and because of my military experiences and the training I received from others I was able to pull the trigger and defend myself and my family.

I don't recommend being shot at to learn or understand what I talking about. but rather to express the need to understand your limitations. Owning and shooting a gun brings on more responsibilities than just safety and hitting a paper target.

That's what I think, best of luck finding your niche, and shoot responsibility.
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oakchas
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Formal training?

Post by oakchas »

Papabear,

Well said.

I have had a permit to carry before. Iowa has 2 types: Professional and personal, I've had both. Though, admittedly a long time ago (nearly 30 years).

I was never in the service, and I was not a LEO. I have only had cause to show my weapon once, and it could have been considered "brandishing" though I never un-holstered. In that case showing the weapon was enough to deter pending violence (directed at me).

I have never been shot at. The likely-hood of having that occur (while increasing at an alarming rate nationwide), is still quite slim.

I have never learned through "live fire" exercises. Where guns with or without blanks were pointed in my direction.

Nevertheless, I practice... I shoot at paper targets. I practice drawing my weapon. I practice every time I hear a noise in my house or near my property. I'm not terribly paranoid, though I do try to maintain a situational awareness at all times in public.

And as far as shooting responsibly.... In our state, there is no castle doctrine law. Additionally, it has been proven time and again in our state that you can be legally right, morally right, and civilly liable. In fact, every spent shell casing is a potentially separate and distinct civil lawsuit.

I do worry about the quantity of folks getting their CCW because it tends to dilute the quality of responsibility found in the CCW community. Especially those with litttle or no training other than the CCW course.

Carrying a weapon may be a right in this country. Too many are unaware of (or flat out do not respect) the responsibility that exercising that right entails.

All that said... I am not affiliated in any way with Sabre Tactical, IPD, or any other weapons training program...

I did find the concepts and methods to be very interesting, and am considering their program of training. and I do beleive that anyone who carries a weapon responsibly should undergo some sort of formal training beyond the CCW class. Especially if they have no other life experience (such as yourself) that gives them any notion of what it's like to be under the duress of a real scenario.

A simple example of this is how disorienting it can be to take off your earmuffs at the firing range and just shoot a few rounds... let alone when there are others at the range firing. This only gives a tiny glimpse of what it might be like to discharge your own weapon at home, in the dark of night, at a real live intruder.

Just my 2 ¢

Charlie

>>edited for spelling<<
Last edited by oakchas on July 29th, 2009, 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lucenut
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Formal training?

Post by lucenut »

"Carrying a weapon may be a right in this country. Too many are unaware of (or flat out do not respect) the responsibility that exercising that right entails."

Lets just focus on keeping it a "right". Attaching more "responsibility" to it only gives the gun control activists more to sink their teeth into.
brianintheup
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Formal training?

Post by brianintheup »

Get all you can and can all you get. The more familiar you are with a firearm and how to use it the safer you can handle that firearm. Thus, the more training you have the more equipped you can be. There are alot of courses out there most of which are costly, thus individuals look for video classes or online courses. These courses ought not be a substitute for instructor based courses.

There is my two cents worth.
oakchas
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Formal training?

Post by oakchas »

michaelap wrote:This smells funny, sure sounds like a leftist gun control nut. This attitude might a bit more at home on another forum.
I <s>am</s> was not going to argue here. I will state emphatically that I am not a leftist gun control nut. (Far from it, in fact)

You may feel you have no responsibility when you carry a weapon.

However, in my state, even if I am legally right and morally right in the use of deadly force... I can still be civilly liable. EVERY SPENT CASING is a potential seperate civil suit... You can bet your ever lovin' (insert cherished body part here) that I would weigh any and all situations before using deadly force very carefully.

Perhaps, in your state; you can carry, fire your weapon irresponsibly, and do whatever you want as long as you have a gun....

I didn't think so.... so before you say I'm a Leftist gun control nut...Use your head and read what I said....
Last edited by oakchas on August 11th, 2009, 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dfunk
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Formal training?

Post by dfunk »

I think oakchas is correct to a degree. I also don't see any gun control lefty in his post, but maybe that's me. I can tell you that I frequent many firearm related forums, and while I can't judge people 100% based on what they type, there are red flags galore that indicate that I don't want to be in the vicinity of them when they're carrying and don't feel that they posses proper judgement required to make critical decisions.

Anyone who says carrying a loaded firearm isn't a responsibility is someone who can stay far away from me and my family.

*Edited to say, I've had formal training to carry on the job, Monday through Friday, and while it wasn't the most comprehensive, it taught many defensive tactics that I otherwise wouldn't have known going in, and it was a great refresher on things I already knew. Also, papabear - I'll take your word...on everything. ;)
Last edited by dfunk on August 11th, 2009, 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
oakchas
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Formal training?

Post by oakchas »

Thanks, Dick!

I was a little worried there ??? I mean, with all rights come responsibilities, no? We cannot infringe on the rights of others in the excercise of our own. Carrying a weapon infringes on no-one's rights, though it may make some uncomfortable.

I didn't want to get into the politics of it. The OP wasn't even written in a political manner. Even the reply was just indicating that I personally don't think my level of training is sufficient, and that I am concerned about some of the people that do carry and feel there is no responsibility attached.

any way, thanks for the supporting comments.

Charlie
oakchas
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Formal training?

Post by oakchas »

Michael,

I will not argue here... You are obviously misunderstanding both me and my intent... I will send you a PM, and if you wish, we can hash it out privately.
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