Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Discussion on reloading the 9x18 and any other cartridge
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RobsTV
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Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by RobsTV »

I'm having a hard time keeping these short bullets lined up squarely during seating, which ends up damaging about 1 out of 10 bullets.

Using once fired 9x19 Winchester +P nickel plated cases that I first run through Lee sizing die, then powder die to enlarge mouth for case cutter, then trimmed to around .706.

After trimming, run through sizing die again, then powder die, which again reflares mouth, and add 3.8grn W231.

Now the hard part. To seat without problems, bullet must be exactly sitting atop case. If it is just a little cocked in any direction, then it will stay cocked, tearing the bullet plating, and looking very off center with end results. This step is also used to remove the flare with a light crimp. It it so light that it does only remove the flare, and is not tapered in, however, viewing pulled bullets after this step from good reloads shows a very slight impression is made to the plating, like it should. No tearing to plating when bullet is placed squarely on shell before seating.

I have tried adjusting the powder die to flare different depths, but while it does flare deeper or shallower, it makes no difference as to correcting problem.

Is this just something normal that reloading the 9x18 mak round with plated bullets sometimes happens? Or, have others seen this and found a solution to get 100% seating without the need for perfectly squared bullets prior?

I have been able to still use most of the damaged bullets by seating a little deeper. Normally seat at .970, but for these damaged plated bullets, many of them seem to be usable if seated to around .960. Still look bad though, but look useable.

Is there anything that can be done with the other damaged bullets that I still could not load? These always seem to get stuck in seating die instead of staying in case, probably due to plating too distorted from previous cocked loading damage.

This was the first time I used plated bullets. Normally use lead for most reloading, and lead is very forgiving. But when plated cost 10 cents each delivered, compared to 8 cents each delivered for lead, figured this round would be a good one to try plated bullets on. Perhaps not?

Thanks,
Rob
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

Rob, I slightly experience the same problem with the Berry 9x18 bullets. They are so short and barely sit in the case to make them look very straight. I can look at my reloads and tell the bullet is ever-so-slightly cocked a bit. My process on the brass is as follows.
Run the 9mm brass through the trimmer and immediately chop them down.
Run through the 9x18 sizing die or universal decapper just to remove the primer.
Run through the 9x18 expander die.
And continue on from there.

It is pointless to size them, expand the mouth, trim them down, run through sizing die, just to have to run them back through the flaring die. You are adding a lot of worthless steps. 9mm Luger as fired will not exceed the diameters for the Mak. I trim them with a 9mm pilot to 18mm because I got tired of flaring the mouth, trying to trim them with the Lee case trimmer and then they seize up when the mandrel of the guide hits the narrow brass again. So, I bought a Lyman Universal trimmer so I can just set the cutter up to my specification and use the 9mm pilot.

I haven't had a problem with the brass digging into the plated bullet. Are you chamfer/deburring the mouth good after trimming? These are the only rounds that I have a problem with them looking cocked, so it's not just you.

All of this is just my opinion on processing the 9mm brass to 9x18. You don't have to follow what I do, I just threw it out there.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by normsutton »

couldn't understand , why you resized the cases twice and belled the cases twice, no need to do that, do it just like Jun , you shouldn't have any problem's , can't help with Barry's bullet's cast my own



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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by RobsTV »

Thanks for the replies.

I looked at it this way.
Two processes.
The first process was to turn the 9x19 into 9x18 cases.
To fit the cutter, this required belling or flaring the mouths larger.
But to also cut to size, from a more correct size, I resized first.
The portion removed was from the bell or flare.
This left me with a case that was 9x18 with little to no flare.
I had my cases.
These cases might be reloaded now, or in a few weeks.
I have close to 1000 more to size, and it is not done during the reloading process.

Next, I simply used these cases as if they were already 9x18 cases, which they were.
Yes, you are both correct that the second resizing was not needed.
But, I have a turrent press, so it was only an additional couple seconds.
All dies are loaded in turent, and it is set to auto advance to next die with handle pull.
Also, I think sizing again would cause no problems.
It also lends to consistency as something I would normally do with all reloads.
These cases can be mixed with previously cut and fired cases.
If the cases did not need resized again, then nothing would happen in the die.
If they somehow changed a little during the cutting process, they would be corrected.
But the bell or flare was removed during cutting, so that step was needed again.

I would guess that none of this should affect the seating problem I experience though, except perhaps the flaring is not enough, but as mentioned prior, different depths were tried with same results.
Last edited by RobsTV on February 1st, 2012, 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by RobsTV »

juniustaylor wrote:..(snip) I trim them with a 9mm pilot to 18mm because I got tired of flaring the mouth, trying to trim them with the Lee case trimmer and then they seize up when the mandrel of the guide hits the narrow brass again. So, I bought a Lyman Universal trimmer so I can just set the cutter up to my specification and use the 9mm pilot.

I haven't had a problem with the brass digging into the plated bullet. Are you chamfer/deburring the mouth good after trimming? (snip)...
I had no problems using the Lee 9x18 sizer and hand cutter.
It did trim too much, to around .700, but that was easily corrected by adding a strand of steel wool wrapped around the threads of 9x18 sizer into cutter. Then tighten sizer firmly. This moves it away from cutter, and after a couple tries, now cuts exactly .706 each time. I use a drill for shell holder, at very low speed, and after sizing, while still turning in drill, I complete by doing the chamfer/deburring inside and out. I use the Lee chamfer/deburring tool for this. That tool would not work with smaller cases, so I cut off half of the depth of handle portion of tool. It now works great with small cases. I did make the mistake with first couple resized cases of not chamfer/deburring. All bullets would fail to properly seat. Chamfer/deburring cured that. Yes, I did try that more and less to see if it helps current seating issue, and no difference, as light chamfer/deburring works just as well as heavy, so light it is.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

Hmmm, I am out of ideas... :roll: You may have to really screw that expander die down. I will try to set up my Lee turret press tonight or tomorrow and see if I can get the Berry bullets to seat okay. I had used a single stage for the first few hundred 9x18 loads I did. Shouldn't make a difference though.

I had used the Lee trimmers when I first got set up. However, I got tired of the drill setup as the case would get wobbly and come out. Then my thumb knuckle would whack into the shell holder and stud and cut it. After about 2 years of doing it that way I got tired of it and bought the Lyman Universal. :) Maybe a drill with a slow setting would be a lot better.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

You may want to check your 9x18 expander die and/or the plug and verify it against your 9mm Luger if you have one. It may be possible for Lee to have goofed and put the Luger expander or plug in the 9x18 set. That "may" cause enough issue for the mouth to not flare enough.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

Rob, I reloaded some 9x18 on my Lee turret press... first time I've used it to do 9x18 since I've had it. These were 9mm Luger that I had converted, shot once, and then reloaded this time. So, it is very likely the fire-forming makes them load easier because they were a breeze. The Berry bullets fed nicely into the case and were STRAIGHT and not cockeyed.

Only two of the last 50 bullets I had got buggered. One time my wife didn't lower the ram all the way to cycle to the seating die, so it marred up the plating on the tip. The second one she forgot to put the primer in. She rarely messes with my reloading stuff unless I'm doing something and ask her if she wants to try. So, I forgive her as she's not fluent with the reloading processes. She does good though. So, I will have to order more bullets and then try loading the cases after I have freshly converted them to see how they turn out.

Also, I was nervous I'd be one short as I sacrificed one bullet to be a setup blank. I just screw the seating die in until it stops on the mouth of this blank. Then screw the plug in until it touches the tip of the bullet. That way I can quickly get it set up for 0.975". Works well. However, Berry's must have included just one extra bullet because I had 50 exactly. I love that Lee Classic Turret press. The safety primer and Auto-Disk Pro measure make it a breeze to reload. Can't say enough good things about my press setup.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by Dwight »

I reloaded a couple hundred 9 Mak rounds this past weekend, using the last of my Berry's plated bullets.

I had trouble seating the first couple bullets because I did not flare the case mouth enough (Lee Pro 1000 with powder-through expander die). Once I added just a hair more flare, the bullets seated fine.

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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

I bought some 93 grain cast MO Bullet Co. bullets on Wednesday and got them on Friday. I had freshly trimmed down some 9mm Luger cases Thursday night. I ran the cases through the 9x18 sizing die ONLY to knock the primers out. The dimensions of the fired 9mm Luger is still going to be less than the 9x18. Then I put the 9mm cases on the Lyman trimmer and cut them down to 0.709" as I'd rather have them on the longer side. 0.713" is the maximum. Anyway, after the primers were knocked out (so the case properly indexes with trimmer chuck), then the cases were trimmed, I proceeded to load them as normal. The case was put on the ram, primed, expanded/powder dropped from Auto-Disk Pro (4.5gr Power Pistol), then seated/crimped in the same operation to 0.980". I experienced no misaligned bullets, all were straight and looked perfect.

When I expanded the case mouth, the expansion did not look excessive. It was only enough for the bullet to easily start without catching. When the bullet is place on the mouth for seating, I put the bullet on there relatively straight so that it won't catch and start cockeyed. I will measure my expander plugs and report what the dimension of expansion is so you can measure yours and see if Lee has the wrong expander in it which may cause the bullets to catch the mouth and tears the plating off.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

I made a picture and put in the measurements. Something to note is that my Lee 9x18 expander has a ring around the middle circumference. Not sure if they do this on purpose in the factory to make sure that only the 9x18 expander gets into the 9x18 die. Anyway, here is my picture and the measurements. Another measurement to note is the length of the expander plug. The 9mm Luger is 1.376" and the 9x18 Mak is 1.423". Mak is longer to account for the ~1mm shorter case.

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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by RobsTV »

Dwight, thanks for the input. I have tried different flares with same results. Maybe it must be exactly right?

juniustaylor
How does the RN tip of the MBC bullet compare with the tip on the Berry's?

I am thinking perhaps the slick round Berry's plated tip might be causing some issue with my Lee seating die. While the die is supposed to properly center and adjust the bullet for squared seating, I think it is not doing any adjusting, and simply pushes the Berry in as it was placed on shell, letting bullet move or rotate improperly if it hits any resistance. If so, solutions might be different seating die or different bullets, neither sounds very good to me until I use up the Berry's. Have not shot enough of them to say how well I like them, but so far, they seem pretty good. Still getting the gun and load dialed in.

Reading what I just typed, reminds me that sometimes the messed up bullets get stuck in seating die. This was no surprise as I can feel the press requiring extra effort early on when things start to tilt a little. Perhaps if I polished the die that might make it slicker, and might rotate or adjust bullet, properly keeping it squared and straight during seating process? Maybe it is sticking a little to die all the time?
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

I am not sure about the "slickness" between the two. Lead bullets are usually slick by nature. Not sure if copper plating would make them more slick than regular lead. Have you tried to reload your cases after they have been fireformed to the chamber of the pistol? You may notice a difference. I loaded my fireformed cases with Berry Plated bullets on my Lee Classic Turret and they were good. I had no issues. Never had an issue with bullets feeling like they're sticking.

I also loaded some cases that were 0.700" (trimmed with Lee case gage) and the MO Bullets seated just fine with none being cockeyed despite the fact that since they were 0.009" shorter than my recent converted cases and the flare wasn't very much if anything.

Not sure about polishing the die. Doubt the bullets are too large in diameter but it may be worth checking. I think they're supposed to be around 0.363" or so. You might check and see if maybe the plating got on too thick or something.

So far the only time I had problems with them seated crooked was with my SmartReloader Omega 800 press. It was a single stage press and had LOTS of slop in the ram. The ram would wobble back and forth and I blame it for breaking 3 decapping pins. Last thought. You may try trimming the cases to the longer spectrum, closer to 0.713". More case length would probably better stabilize the bullet as it is seated into the case. May keep the bullet more true.

These are just all random thoughts and ideas. I am NOT questioning your ability to reload in any way. Just throwing out stuff because even I don't think of things and it's good to have more brainstorming than I can do by myself. I hope you figure something out.

Forgot to mention. The MO Bullets look exactly like the Berry bullets. Same shape and all. The MO Bullets have a ring around them for the lube.
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by RobsTV »

Late to reply with a quick update.

No, I have not tried the trimmed fired cases after firing. So far just once fired 9x19 trimmed to 9x18, then firing those. Going through my supply of once fired 9x19, trimming a new batch, shooting them, and storing the newly trimmed after firing until all stock is that way, then will start to reuse.

More issues. Besides the bullets sometimes going in crooked, tearing the plating, I now see the seating/crimp die is leaving a mark midway down the cases horizontally when I crimp enough to leave a slight perfect impression in plating. This is always in the same spot. Well below seated bullet depth. If I rotate the round and crimp a second time, a second horizontal line appears. It almost looks as if the die is resizing the finished round, if you are familiar with the LFC dies, which this is not. I have taken apart dies and cleaned with steel wool, but they looked fine, and this didn't help as crease is still there, exact same spot. (see photo below)

Also, I can get bullets to seat squarely almost 100% of the time if after initial flaring of mouth, I rotate case 45 degrees, flare again, and repeat this rotate flare a few times. This seems to make the flare more consistent (I guess), which allows the bullet a little extra room to adjust during seating.

During a call to Lee support for assistance with wrong length S&W 500 expanding die (requires backing out 9 turns after contacting shell holder, not 1 turn like normal) as well as a blown out collet neck sizing die cap in a 303 brit, I asked about the 9mm Mak die that was giving me issues. They were no help on any of the above, except sent me a new cap for the 303 brit die. Lee support said just leave the S&W 500 9 turns out and use it if it works that way. For the 9mm mak, they suggested I flare or expand deeper into case. I am already near the amount that the seated bullet goes into case, which is very little.

Due to issues with what seems like two of the 9mm mak dies, I have ordered a second set of dies, so that I have something on hand to compare to. Hopefully this new set will work fine, then I can send the defective stuff back to Lee.

I'll update after testing the new die set.

Sorry about the photo below not being clear. Sun not yet up so poor lighting.
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Photo of damaged bullets and crease in case of good round
Photo of damaged bullets and crease in case of good round
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Re: Difficulties loading Berry's Plated bullets

Post by juniustaylor »

That is something else. Hmmm..

Only time I got a mark like that on a case was if I started the case into the bullet seater die crooked. It would catch on the bottom of the die and put a groove like that on the case.

Certainly give the new die set a try and see what happens. This is a strange issue. I haven't read of anyone have this many problems loading freshly converted Luger brass.
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