S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

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S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by RobsTV » September 13th, 2012, 2:17 pm

Picked up an M&P Shield 40 for modern pocket carry comparable to P64.
Just got it and will be test firing later today. (first shooting review in 5th post)

Did quick photo comparison.
Almost identical.
For those 9mm fans, the 9mm Shield is the same external size as the 40 shown.

Note that the photos of the Shield in .40 comes with both a 6 and 7 round magazine, but to compare with the P64, only used the 6 round mag. The spare 7 round can go in my other pocket.

End results, about the same overall size and weight, but with modern features such as a very nice trigger pull and reset, striker fired and trigger safety. The 180gr bullet the 40 shoots is about twice the bullet mass of the P64.

Unlike most, I rate longer distance accuracy as highly as concealment. When you are riding a motorcycle on a deserted road in an area foreign to you and a car decides he wants to purposely run you down, stopping the motorcycle to get off, with a handgun capable of shooting at a driver of a moving car racing towards you from 30 yards away, is possibly an only option. (luckily another rare car on that long stretch of highway happened by at same time, which allowed our speedy escape). Getting mugged where we live and play is not up there on the list of things we worry about.

For me, the pocket carry aspect simply gives me another option. Can use the pocket holster IWB, then toss it into pocket if needed. Or use two holsters depending on situation. The pistols size at least allows the option. Florida heat means shorts and t-shirts, and both of these fit in my cargo shorts great. Long term? Probably not too great for hours of pocket carry. EDIT: Updated pocket carry remarks in 3rd post
Attachments
Width.jpg
Width. A wash. Shield slide is a little wider, but P64 grip is a little wider (when neither has Hogue). I did move the Hogue Jr from the P64 to the Shield, which added a little width for palm swell, yet still keeping narrow width for fingers
Height.jpg
Height. The P64 is actually a little taller.
Length.jpg
Overall length equal, but sight radius is longer on the 40, hopefully giving more accuracy than that already very accurate P64.
Last edited by RobsTV on September 21st, 2012, 3:11 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64

Post by RobsTV » September 13th, 2012, 2:24 pm

3 attachments allowed per post, so will see if another post will allow more.
Attachments
Shield Top.jpg
Shield on top of P64
P64 Top.jpg
P64 on top of Shield
Ammo.jpg
Ammo. Here are the six 9x18 95gr Berry's Plated compared to the six .40 S&W 180gr Berrys plated, as well as the mags.
Last edited by RobsTV on September 13th, 2012, 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64

Post by RobsTV » September 13th, 2012, 2:31 pm

But wait, there's more!

EDIT: After pocket carrying for a while, a few things noticeable right away.

First, the weight and size are no problem. I do not know it is there when seated for long periods of time, and walking is like having a big pocket phone, which I have always had anyway. O.K., maybe a little bigger than a big pocket phone..

Second, the Shield is much more difficult to remove from pocket than the P64. This is without the Hogue Jr grip on either. (maybe easier with grip, but preparing to send shield in for repair, so no grip now). I am guessing this is due to the larger grip area between trigger guard to mag finger extension that the P64 has. Maybe it is the smooth and rounded corners of the P64 Vs the square and rough Shield? The P64 has enough grip that you can easily grab it and remove from your pocket. The Shield takes work and for that reason, at this point, would not make a good pocket carry if you do so with the intent on a fast draw. If pocket carry to have with you just in case, knowing it might take a few seconds to remove, then it is great. However, this Shield with Desantis pocket holster combo easily and securely fits IWB, with great fast draw and secure holding. The ability to pocket some days, and IWB others, is one reason what I went this route, so not totally disappointed with poor pocket carry of the Shield.

EDIT some more.. It seems the tall rear sight is what is catching when pulling the Shield out of pocket. Was able to solve this by placing thumb over the top of rear sight and then removing from pocket. With a short amount of practice, very fast draw. But, still hung up a few times. More practice would help, although if any doubts, I will always expect the worst to happen and plan accordingly (like instead IWB when possible).

Pocket carry with the P64's exposed hammer meant for me that the safety was always on to enable hammer block, but this slows how quickly you can use it. The Shield seems much safer to carry with safety off, and striker is blocked unless trigger is pulled correctly (hinged trigger safety also reduces chance of accidental trigger pulls). Pocket holsters also help protect trigger with any pocket carry. This whole safe carry thing is "one" of the main reasons I was looking for a P64 replacement.
Attachments
Pocket.jpg
Comparing the pocket holsters. Width is close, but length of Mikes for the P64 is a little longer than the .40's DeSantis Nemesis
Shield Empty.jpg
Weight of Shield empty
P64 Empty.jpg
Weight of P64 empty
Last edited by RobsTV on September 21st, 2012, 3:00 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by RobsTV » September 13th, 2012, 2:33 pm

Final photos!!!
Attachments
P64 Loaded.jpg
The P64 fully loaded with six 95 gr bullets
Shield Loaded.jpg
The shield fully loaded with six 180 grain bullets

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by RobsTV » September 14th, 2012, 9:23 am

Initial shooting test was a failure.
Sights are off, and had to drop down to 10 yard range to see 3" groups that were 4" high and 4" left of poa. Practice and different ammo should improve groups.

After 60 rounds it started dropping mags. This is a known issue with many of the 40 cal versions of Shield, and S&W will correct it. It can also be owner corrected by punching a tiny dimple in each magazine. But with the accuracy issues, it is going back to S&W for correction, and will do another test in a couple weeks. Note that the 9mm does not have this mag drop issue, and no other reports of inaccuracy.

Recoil was nothing. Not as snappy as the P64. Felt great in my hands. Great sight picture made acquiring targets easy and fast (except they were off). The looks and style of the Shield are no where close to the great looks of the P64, but I didn't buy it to look at. Just another blocky pistol.

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by Curly1 » September 14th, 2012, 10:19 am

Nice comparison review. How was the price comparison?

That's too bad about the mag issues, are these manufactured and assembled in the US.

As far as that car running you down on a deserted road scenario you are gonna need as they say on the show Wipeout, Big Balls and some luck to stand there and try to take out a driver in a moving vehicle at 30 yards before he hits you. You will problably have a second or 2 before it covers the 30 yards depending on speed. Stay on the bike and run like hell and go off road at the first oppurtunity then get in to the shoot out under cover if possible. It won't matter at that point what caliber you have then as long as it goes bang. :)
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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by RobsTV » September 14th, 2012, 11:03 am

Price comparison, about two surplus P64's for one new shield. $450.

After a 10 day ride on our Honda ST1100 to Maine and back, we turned off on a long stretch of road heading west in northern Florida, and were about 3 hours from home. While riding along at around 65mph, I noticed a car rapidly gaining in my mirror. Very rapidly. Slowed down to around 60 and moved to right tire groove so he would have plenty of room to pass. Next thing I see is him passing me on the right shoulder (dirt). I moved to left tire groove. Looked at him as he slowed to pass us on the right, and he looked like a skinhead sort of person in a beat up small car. He gave us an evil look like we were going to die today.. I immediately hit the brakes so he could not swerve into us, and downshifted into second gear. He zipped past us, then a few hundred feet later he power slid into a vacant gas station (dirt lot), spinning his car around to now be facing us. I was unarmed so could not stop. Instead I tried to see if I could time things to speed past him. Luckily a van all of a sudden appeared coming towards us. He saw the van and made him pause while we kicked the bike in the butt and sped off at 100+mph. He then spun out of the dirt the opposite direction, following the van. Didn't see another car on the road for 45 minutes.

Had I been armed, my thoughts are we would have slammed on the brakes that first time, but would have came to complete stop and got off the bike on the road. Now when he was facing us down from that deserted parking lot, he would have been looking at us pointing a gun at him. Hopefully that would have been enough to make him run the other way while we attempted to phone for help. A more accurate handgun might not have made a difference, but I know a belly gun would have been totally useless.

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by juniustaylor » September 14th, 2012, 11:36 am

What a freak! Hopefully someone gets that knobhead's license number and reports him. That would have been good if you'd had a good handgun on you at the time. May have made you feel a bit better. Glad you got out of there okay.
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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by Curly1 » September 14th, 2012, 11:03 pm

Yes that does sound scary.
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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by RobsTV » November 18th, 2012, 9:36 am

Update on Shield after about 600 rounds.
This has raised the scale on what I think a pocket gun should be.

After adding Apex Shield carry kit, trigger is as good or better than any full size hand gun I have tried, including 1911 Gold Cup match with trigger jobs.

With the very good standard factory 3 dot sights, accuracy is up there with any full size pistol. Sub 3" groups at 10 yards from "first time amateur shooters" is close to normal. After some practice, I am now hitting under 3" at 25 yards, and 6 to 8" groups at 50 yards. (note that this is using cast lead reloads sized for specific barrel, providing optimal accuracy).

Reliability has been 100% since I got it back from S&W to correct mag drop issue, higher front sight and reduce trigger pull under warranty (took less than 5 days).

Have the pocket carry down pat. Just took a little practice, along with the right angle, and now can instantly pull the Shield out of pocket every time, just as easily as the P-64. Removed the Hogue Jr and changed to Talon's, which made another nice improvement.

The Shield was to be for deep carry, with another full sized .40 used at the home, but the Shield can definitely do it all, so other .40 will soon be gone.

Many things about the P-64 I miss, but since my buddy now owns it, I still get to shoot it regularly. Tempted to pick up another every time I see one at a gunshow or online, and doubt I will be able to hold out long. The P-64 is just a fun gun to shoot that also looks great.

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Re: S&W M&P Shield 40 Vs P64 Pocket Carry

Post by Legally Armed » November 18th, 2012, 3:25 pm

RobsTV wrote:But wait, there's more!

EDIT: After pocket carrying for a while, a few things noticeable right away.

First, the weight and size are no problem. I do not know it is there when seated for long periods of time, and walking is like having a big pocket phone, which I have always had anyway. O.K., maybe a little bigger than a big pocket phone..

Second, the Shield is much more difficult to remove from pocket than the P64. This is without the Hogue Jr grip on either. (maybe easier with grip, but preparing to send shield in for repair, so no grip now). I am guessing this is due to the larger grip area between trigger guard to mag finger extension that the P64 has. Maybe it is the smooth and rounded corners of the P64 Vs the square and rough Shield? The P64 has enough grip that you can easily grab it and remove from your pocket. The Shield takes work and for that reason, at this point, would not make a good pocket carry if you do so with the intent on a fast draw. If pocket carry to have with you just in case, knowing it might take a few seconds to remove, then it is great. However, this Shield with Desantis pocket holster combo easily and securely fits IWB, with great fast draw and secure holding. The ability to pocket some days, and IWB others, is one reason what I went this route, so not totally disappointed with poor pocket carry of the Shield.

EDIT some more.. It seems the tall rear sight is what is catching when pulling the Shield out of pocket. Was able to solve this by placing thumb over the top of rear sight and then removing from pocket. With a short amount of practice, very fast draw. But, still hung up a few times. More practice would help, although if any doubts, I will always expect the worst to happen and plan accordingly (like instead IWB when possible).

Pocket carry with the P64's exposed hammer meant for me that the safety was always on to enable hammer block, but this slows how quickly you can use it. The Shield seems much safer to carry with safety off, and striker is blocked unless trigger is pulled correctly (hinged trigger safety also reduces chance of accidental trigger pulls). Pocket holsters also help protect trigger with any pocket carry. This whole safe carry thing is "one" of the main reasons I was looking for a P64 replacement.
Your comments on pocket carry carry are why I laugh at the official line on the p64 being designed for duty use. I don't buy it. Every care was taken to make it concealable and easy to draw from concealment.

Maybe have issued for duty, but that's not what it was designed for.

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