Need some suggestions

[carguy]

I am in the market for something...interesting, different...I only have milsurp rifles (MN, SKS, MAS) and a couple of modern shotguns. Now it's time for something new. I am looking at AR type "Evil Black Rifles" (maybe one in 7.62x39 like the SKS), an UZI in 9mm, PPSH-41 semi (new from old parts), Kel Tec Sub2000, ???? Am not looking for an AK type rifle at all.

Any suggestions!! Definitely trying to kepp it south of $1,000 closer to $600 if possible.

[mamcdonald]

invest the $1k in something with a high quick return and get an FN SCAR-H once they come out. -L if you want cheaper ammo. Maybe the Bushmaster/Magpul ACR whenever they become available.

If you want (relatively) instant gratification, call CMMG (http://www.cmmginc.com) and see if their bargain-bin rifles are still in stock. There is no guarantee on manufacturer but everything I've heard about them is positive. Except their customer service.

[volfandan]

I didn't think you could have stuff like that in Mass???? Seriously, all kidding aside....I really thought that you guys couldn't have AR's, UZI's, etc.

If you can, AND you are absolutely against the AK.....

then I'd get an AR. I like FAL's, Cetme/G3/91 style rifles much better than the AR, but ammo is a consideration.

You had mentioned maybe a 7.62x39, and so you could get an AR kit in that caliber. I strongly suggest building a gun from a kit. It's cheaper, you can pick and choose parts to customize, and it's a fun learning experience.

Rguns has DPMS AR lowers for like $105. You can get into a basic A2 style AR kit for about $460....but you will pay more for a 7.62x39 upper. You'd still be WAY under $1k, though.

If you want to buy a complete rifle, and aren't set on 7.62x39.....look at the price on this .45ACP AR!!!!!

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?sh ... 532&cat=33&

[carguy]

Yes we Massholes can have stuff like AR's and Uzi's...

I am amazed at how many people have AR's! Once the conversation starts then suddenly oh, I have a ___ and someone else chimes in that they have a ___! Amazing!

Ammo is a consideration but not the determining factor as it will be a plinker...I have no imminent invasion plans... :'(. A local gun shop is trying to convince me to pick up a PTR?? in 308. Pretty cool but both rifle and ammo are expensive. We'll see. Just starting the search and need to edumacate myself. But an Uzi does tempt me. And I like the PPSH41's that are now available.

Thanks for your input and put down...Dan...

[volfandan]

CDNN sells the JLD PTR-91 for $899. That'd be the way to go.....just pay the transfer fees, background check, and shipping. That way you'd bypass tax as well.

[garry]

Hey Carguy, "Massholes" HAHAHAHHA
I get to shoot a neighbor's Bushmaster XM15 black rifle frequently, and, while it is growing on me quickly, I am still not a .22 caliber,"big Rifle" fan. Getting one in 7.62x39 makes very little sense to me .(unless you live in the Land Of AK's.) I personally think that both the .223 AND the 7.62x39 are underpowered for a "Big Gun". .308 ammo is comparable to most other surplus ammo in price. I also am a fan of the FN-FAL, G3, Scar-heavy, etc... but all of these are in larger caliber .308 size.
I have started shooting targets out at 400 yards now and i need "Visual feedback" downrange. When i watch for my bullets to impact in the dirt with the .223 , I am lucky if i can spot where it hits.
ON THE OTHER HAND, when i shoot the .308 or larger bullets, I can see a 15 ft. high roostertail of MUD. BIG DIFFERENCE. it helps alot.
Personally i will wait for all of the used-up surplus AR's to come down to about$300 or less before i will get a .22 cal "Battle Rifle". Accuracy of the .308 is still choice in competition shooting, and less wind deflection.
An AR will sure cost alot just to go "Plinking". I am backwards to alot of these guys , but , I am on a budget and prefer to get $1000 worth of ammo to shoot in a $150-200 gun.
I can shoot 1" groups with the BM XM15 @100yds. I can't tell you where all of those long shots landed because of the wind and the little bullets out at 400yds. They are battle rifles meant to be shot under 300 yds. but can be accurate out to 1000yds. (from what I hear and read)
I guess what I am trying to say here is that , millions of AR owners are happy, the others spend a fortune accessorizing and replacing every last piece on them trying to make it "better". I'd rather have 6 $200 guns than 1 $1200 gun that i feel i have to replace everything on to make it likable. I would like to know more about what AR owners think of their black rifles tho.
I do want to say that the AR is a fine rifle , just not for my price range. I saw a barrel full of AR-15's at a gunshow that were "Your pick@$500 each. I nearly bought one, but, I ONLY wanted the .308 AR10 style. My friend has at least $2000 tied up in his Bushmaster, and is now looking to replace his stock to a compression type stock for $230. Does it ever stop? If the SKS had as many accessories as the AR, I might be just as guilty of buying "extra" stuff for it . Maybe. BIG MAYBE. All of these guns served their countries just fine in Stock MilSpec configurations. All the extras are just eye candy and very few add to the accuracy and/or reliability. I guess I am just a Utilitarian when it comes to guns. They are an investment and can certainly be made to look and shoot better. Whatever you choose, I am sure you will want another one soon afterwards. Surplus is Just That Way. Carguy, I will suggest that you take your Other guns with you when you go to try shooting an AR-15. Compare a few of them in between AR shots. That PPSH41 sounds interesting. I didn't know they were available for sale. I imagine that the kids and wife will really like the AR15. They are "fun" guns. Appealing to the eye. Low recoil.
The new 6.8 caliber AR uppers are making a big noise on the market lately. When you compare the three calibers (.223, 7.62x39, and 6.8ppc) the 6.8 looks like the best of the 3. (for power accuracy and distance.) For just "Plinking" it may be the new way to go in the AR15 rifle.
I hope this helps at least a little and yes, it is ONLY MY OPINION. There are others here that fought with the AR and swear by it. Good for them. There experience is why we know what we know about them. If given a choice in battle, most soldiers would have preferred to have the .308 M14's. That was THEN , This is NOW, What do you guys(AR-15 owners) think now after 40 years of the AR-15? would you prefer .308 over the .223? Thanks Guys ! G

[normsutton]

Carguy

ther is always http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

NORM

[garry]

Norm has a great idea there ! A Garand would probably give you the best bang for your Bucks !
And you will have a true American Treasure. Garand vs. Black rifle ? pretty easy call for me. Garand . HANDS DOWN. That or an M14. G

[carguy]

Dan: Great price on the PTR as my dealer wants $1200 for it. Can't get around the tax as the gun hsop is supposed to charge me the sales tax upon transfer.

Garry: I hear you...308 is a bigger and better caliber. I've been thinking milsurp and just wanted to consider something more modern. And as a plinker the cost of ammo is negligible anyways...except that if I get a modern semi like an AR or PTR I will definitely shoot a little more rapid fire and go through "whatever" a lot faster! I agree that I'm always on a budget. But I got a couple of bucks so I'm thinking hard.

NORM: You are illing me...I know CMP, I wanted to order an M! and a carbine but am trying to broaden my exposure into these EBR. And believe it or not my club doesn't qualify for me to participate in CMP purchase so I would need to do it some other way. I'll have to check the rugs.

Check these out...the choices keep getting more not less!!

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/ ... Path=14_15

[normsutton]

carguy

all you have to do to qualify is be member of The Garand Collectors Association

http://www.thegca.org/

$40. for membership
$495.00 M1 Garand, Springfield Armory, Field Grade
$22.95 PER RIFLE SHIPPING & HANDLING

what 's left over of your $1,000.00 ammo

NORM

[garry]

Carguy, Here is an odd combo for "around" $1000-ish, A Russian PPSH-41 Semi, and a Swiss K31 Bolt gun ! Two guns doubles the funs. that is a good site ! You are right , The CHOICES are getting bigger ! Man Oh Man, That Degtyarev DP28 looks beastly! and in a caliber that I am very comfortable with. 7.62x54R ! That is alot of money tho, and you'll still have to spend more on Ammo ~frequently. (subliminal message:buy a Russian SVT-40)
Are you reloading ammo yet?
As you get more guns you will have more ammo sizes to buy,and that may help decide further.
Do you like "modular" type of guns? (Add-ons:rails,lights,lazers, nuclear powered squirrel annihilators,foghorns,DeerSpanker, BBQ grill, cupholder,Bayonet w/guthook,etc...)(subliminal message: VZ52)
I know you mentioned that you weren't exactly interested in the AK types, I am interested in that Ak large caliber /long barrel gun that I keep seeing the Russian snipers carrying, the RPK? SVD? PSL? NDM? Your choice of the alphabet,either way CPR won't help. (subliminal message:buy a Lee-Enfield)
Do you want to shoot looooong range? or maybe,Short(under100yds)range,or both?(subliminal message:buy a Russian SV-98) Do you like Lever-action guns? Do you like guns that look like they are from outer-space? (subliminal message:buy a French PGM Ultima Ratio 'Intervention' .308 cal.)
Are you interested in making a collection based on Countries? France has some pretty good looking modern guns like the GIAT FAMAS assault rifle,or, this FR F2 : http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn23-e.htm to go with your MAS rifle. (subliminal message: Buy Garry one also)(oh yea, and make him a turkey sandwich while you're up.)(thanks.)
South Africa has some interesting new designs, like the (and a Pepsi) Vektor CR-21 assault rifle.(thanks again): http://world.guns.ru/assault/as26-e.htm (heehee , if the buttpad was the head and the long magazine was the frontlegs, it kinda looks like a dog dragging skidmarks on a new carpet!)
Oh well the list goes on . The more I look, The more I like! Part of the fun is getting there. Keep us in on it Carguy, you know we are all watching like expectant parents to see what it ends up looking like! G

[carguy]

This mission is partially for my son...otherwise I'd probably have that PPSH on order right now! I just love that older classic looking stuff with wood stocks! I've been looking at Garrands and M1 carbines as well. I'd love to pick up an SVT or a MAS 49/56 (can get one of those for under $500 easy and havethe same 7.5 French round).

I am compromising in trying to find something more modern (read black polymer not wood). I have been reading some reviews and they actually have steered me away from the HK (like I'd spend that kind of money) clone PTR 91 and toward the M1A1 (newer M14). I still would like an UZI...I had a blast when I rented one last year! Doesn't someone on the forum have an UZI?? Tell me why I sould or shouldn't buy one...please...

I'll keep looking and let you all know when the decision comes...it'll be a while.

[barnett3006]

Garry,

I own a DPMS AP4 (A3M4 configured AR15) and I couldn't be happier with it. The only things that I have added to "accessorize" my black rifle (other than a stock pile of magazines) are a 4x28mm carry handle mount scope (built in bullet drop compensator), a Harris bipod, an elevated cheek rest and a single point sling adapter. That is really all that I plan to add to the rifle, and personally, I think that the fun part about these rifles is the ability to add whatever you want to them but I certainly didn't have to add anything to it to make it likable (although you are going to have to tell me more about the nuclear powered squirrel annihilator and that deerspanker ;D). Also, I can use the Harris bipod on 3 of my other rifles so it has more than one use.

And having just come back from a visit in TN I am pleased to report a 6 shot 12" group at 500 yards with 75 gr Prvi Match ammo from the very same black rifle I described above. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I don't know about an AR in 7.62x39mm but one in 6.8ppc or even 6.5Grendel would be a fun and accurate plinking rifle (either way its still gonna cost more then .223). I am kind of considering an upper receiver in either 243WSSM or 25WSSM, but that is more for big game hunting and not really for plinking.

As far as .308 .vs .223; both are good cartridges that have there pros and cons. The military chose the .223 over the .308 because one could carry 3 times the ammo at the same weight and because the .223 could penetrate various barriers at given distances that the .308 could not. Both rounds can produce MOA or smaller groups although the .308 is much less susceptible to wind drift. I like both cartridges and I wish I had a .308 (I'm probably gonna get one pretty soon).

Carguy,

I'm glad to hear that you Massholes (LOL) can own "evil assault" rifles. ARs, FALs, Cetmes and Garands are all fine rifles and all would be lots of fun to shoot. ARs are definitely the most adaptable of the group, having the ability to be configured in most short action rifle cartridges(.222, .223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 6.5grendal, 6.8ppc, .458socom, .450bushmaster and .50beowulf to name some) and several pistol cartridges (9mm, 40s&w, 10mm, 45acp and .50ae). FALs and L1A1s have been the standard battle rifle in many countries for a long time for a good reason. Cetmes are another reliable battle rifle, although (as I read somewhere on AR15.com) that the more common ones from Century have a 50/50 chance of working right and being reliable, the G3 and HK91 versions of the Cetme are good though. Garand rifles are probably going to be the most reliable of all, some of our elite military outfits still use a version of the Garand rifle. Another option might be a Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 which are based on a Garand type action.

[garry]

Barnett3006, Congratulations on the small group !!!!!!! That is Good shooting!
I was trying to not sound "Anti-AR", It is starting to grow on me and like i said , i have only recently started shooting it alot. My Friend,the bushmaster xm-15 owner, was unable to get much better than a 6" group with it @100yds., then I tried it and I put down a 1" group with HIS rifle. EASILY ! I was completely impressed with the accuracy. It shoots like just my Marlin 60. With more practice, i will start to like it a lot more! I'll bet I could get a 1/2" group with it after i shot it for a bit. (btw: it was real windy the day I shot the 1" group)
He was suprised that it shot that well. I have been shooting for at least 20 years longer than he has, so i have an edge and experience that he doesn't have , yet. (the old cliche'"Old age and Treachery/trickery beats Youth and Exhuberence", comes to mind)
Again , I sure didn't mean to knock it at all. Men are alive today because of it's many different features and variable configurations..(tho i admit i did not like them much at first in the late 80's because of the plastic.)(I always thought they looked cool) .
But that was before i started shooting it .
I know it came across that way , sorry y'all. I was ignorant about the different calibers back then and didn't even know what caliber the AR was when I had a chance to buy a new one for $400 from my boss. And I thought that was just was too much for any gun back then.(my bad~ it doubled in price immediately before the Ban in the 90's.) I REALLY think it is alot of money NOW for one. I am a cheapo, and I get what i pay for. NOW, I would love to add one to my collection. I'd much rather have the larger caliber bullets if I were to spend that much money for an AR. That adds significantly to the price.
"Barnett3006" -your name looks like you appreciate the .30 cal. also?
I want a .30-06 rifle. To Me, that will be penultimate to my collection. I would shoot it more than any of my others rifles ,most likely. I like that big caliber stuff alot. That is one reason Why I like the Mosin-Nagant rifles. That is as close as I can afford to the .30-06 caliber. lol.
Do you have a .30-06 rifle? If so, what kind is it and do you like to shoot it often ,or just seasonally? Is it one you would recommend?
I had a chance shoot a Rem. 700 heavy bbl. rifle in .30-06,w/ redfield 3-9x32 scope on it. I shot 2 cartriges and it was an awesome ride. I did not see where the hits were because we were leaving, but, I imagine they were both at the same place , because ,"it just felt right!! "
Anyways , that left me wanting a .30-06 rifle really badly. I will be happy for now just to get a scope mounted on one of my mosin nagant rifles. I am thinking about trying my winchester 94 side mount,with 4x32scope, on the MN 91/30-44. Drilling required. It looks like a good fit tho.
I have the $9.99 extendable,Bipod. It clamps on to any rifle (not good for accuracy if mounted on the barrel itself tho) It is universal,metal,simple to use, compact,pocket-portable,cheap, and works perfectly. A light rubber or cloth cushion on the claws would be helpful to prevent metal to metal scratching tho. Is yours on a weaver or picatinny type of system?
I have heard that the DPMS is one of the best versions. An AR-15 in .243WSSM would be a sweet one !!! I have one of those bullets in my collection, and it is a fat, mean, wicked,and Nasty looking little bug! Like an atomic housefly.
You are right , it is a drag that there aren't more accessories for the "other" rifles. Like maybe a bayonet horn saw/ Ribcage spreader, 9-volt massaging grip heaters, massaging cheek-rest, stock mounted barrel cooling fans,ventilated ductwork, 12-volt powered barrel thermostat(for consistant barrel temperature, Bullet washer, On-Board Chronograph, Blackberry ballistics program, weather station, LCD(HD-compatible) monitor readout and video re-play screen, belly mounted Game caller/loudhorn spkr, Infra-red Game Detector, weight-scales for bullets, etc...
Carguy , Good luck ! It all boils down to YOU ! The .223 vs. .308 calibers discussion will last as long as the rifles themselves. Chevy vs. Ford. What works for him might not work for you. Microsoft Windows is that way too. lol
Carguy , I hope all of this discussion is helpful but, for me it is more confusing than ever ! I am thinking about all of these different rifles and want them all and I WANT THEM NOW. I guess that I am best off to just see what comes around ,and when it does I'll get it . Come what may. The best way for me to decide ,is to go look at them ,and don't buy the first thing you see, look around and shop. You will find your dream gun for under $500 someday !
Barnett3006, Keep up the great shooting ! That is very impressive grouping!! A better scope will get you even better accuracy. You didn't say what type of ammo you used. was it factory loads? Handloads or Reloads? .308 and the 7.62x54R are close ballistically so I am gonna practice with a scope and see how well i can get these Mosin Nagants to work first before I go shopping for a .308 win. rifle. G

[space]

I vote Ruger Mini-30, although may not be evil enough



http://www.impactguns.com/store/736676058068.html

Carguy - You going to the gun show in NH this weekend?