Who carries to Church

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butch50
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Who carries to Church

Post by butch50 » January 20th, 2006, 3:40 pm

Mongo: I was re-reading the Texas CHL laws again last night. These are for 2003-2004 that I have. Unless it has changed since then, what it said is that you can not carry into a church, if a 30.06 sign is posted. The way I read it is that if a church does not post the proper sign, you can carry there. I also checked packing.org and found the same basic information and it says it was up to date as of Aug 2005.
Last edited by butch50 on January 20th, 2006, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mongo
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Who carries to Church

Post by mongo » January 20th, 2006, 6:37 pm

Packing.org is the biggest collection of jailhouse lawyer, legal expert wannabes ever...

from the state website:

PC §46.035.

UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;

(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

(5) in an amusement park; or

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.

(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under the Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes) and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

(f) In this section:

(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony of the third degree.

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
Last edited by mongo on January 20th, 2006, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

butch50
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Who carries to Church

Post by butch50 » January 21st, 2006, 11:42 am

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.


That is the part I was referring to. As I read this, if a Church does not post a 30.06 sign then it is legal to carry there.

Agree or disagree?

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Who carries to Church

Post by mongo » January 21st, 2006, 12:24 pm

I wouldn't try it.

you tell me what this means:

§6.45

Places Prohibited: Class A Misdemeanor Violations.


(5) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.

So no posting is required but they have to give you notice. I take that to mean if you know the congregation does not allows guns and it was ever stated publicly, ie orally then you COULD be in violation if they wanted to push it.

I was told it's vague at best.
Last edited by mongo on January 21st, 2006, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

butch50
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Who carries to Church

Post by butch50 » January 21st, 2006, 9:12 pm

Probably depends on what 30.06 defines as "effective notice" , and I don't have that to review.

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Who carries to Church

Post by mongo » January 22nd, 2006, 12:39 pm

Everything is on the TDPS website.

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papabear
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Who carries to Church

Post by papabear » January 24th, 2006, 10:56 am

Unlawful to CC in Church in Ky too, some gun laws make sence!
POINT SHOOTER

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tunnelrat
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Who carries to Church

Post by tunnelrat » January 25th, 2006, 6:22 pm

Unlawful to CC in Church in Ky too, some gun laws make sence!
I recall reading that in some of the original colonies it was required by law to bring your gun to church. I suppose in those days pretty much everybody attended the church meeting and that was when they could assure that each man was properly armed for militia duties.

butch50
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Who carries to Church

Post by butch50 » January 26th, 2006, 12:43 am

From the Texas Deartment of Public Safety - effective notice according to 30.06 will be a posted sign. I would say from this and the other language that it is legal to carry in a Church in Texas if they have not posted this sign.

PROHIBITING HANDGUNS IN A BUSINESS OR OTHER ENTITY

In order to provide notice that entry on property by a license holder with a concealed handgun is forbidden, Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(A) requires that a written communication contain the following language:

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

"CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."

Download language

Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(B) further states that a sign must meet the following requirements:

includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height

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Who carries to Church

Post by mongo » January 26th, 2006, 7:48 pm

(5) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.

What part of no posting required escapes you?
;D
Last edited by mongo on January 26th, 2006, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

butch50
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Who carries to Church

Post by butch50 » January 26th, 2006, 8:33 pm

It's like this. If the preacher has made it clear to you personally that you are not to carry, then I wouldn't. Regardless of the law, if it was his wish then it is his house. However, if he has not made it clear to you personally, and has not posted the sign, then it is legal to carry. There is an apparent contradiction between no posting required, and effective notice under 30.06, because 30.06 says that effective notice is served by posting a specific sign, but if no notice is given and no sign is posted you are good to go.

At least that is the way I read it.

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Who carries to Church

Post by fjblackesq » January 26th, 2006, 9:05 pm

CC in Indiana is State Supervision, same rules thruout state. Enforecement may very well be local and vary from one place to another. By the way, who needsa piece in church??? Or is it to sauve the ole ego????

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Who carries to Church

Post by mongo » January 27th, 2006, 12:40 am

It's like this. If the preacher has made it clear to you personally that you are not to carry, then I wouldn't. Regardless of the law, if it was his wish then it is his house. However, if he has not made it clear to you personally, and has not posted the sign, then it is legal to carry. There is an apparent contradiction between no posting required, and effective notice under 30.06, because 30.06 says that effective notice is served by posting a specific sign, but if no notice is given and no sign is posted you are good to go.

At least that is the way I read it.
It's vague.. it's typical statespeak. good luck. We still argue over this including LE whom I have several friends and many of them can't agree.

;D

butch50
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Who carries to Church

Post by butch50 » January 27th, 2006, 10:34 am

By the way, who needsa piece in church??? Or is it to sauve the ole ego????
Here is one reason to carry in Church, or any other place where people are packed together. This is the first news article I found after a quick google search.

Wisconsin church shooting could easily happen here
Posted on Tuesday, March 15 @ 13:49:51 EST by jeff

According to the Associated Press, the church member who opened fire on his congregation in the “no-CCW” state of Wisconsin had time to empty one magazine, reload, and empty another. No one was capable of resistance, and he finally took his own life.

In all, this man murdered seven church-goers, and injured four more.

Last year, concealed carry legislation was vetoed by Wisconsin governor Jim Doyle, and a veto-override attempt failed by one vote, when Democrat Representative Gary Sherman, who had originally voted for the bill, switched sides at the last second, reluctant to veto a governor of his own party.

Thanks to the Ohio legislature and the gun ban extremists whose advice they took, a massacre like this could happen in any church in Ohio, unless the church acts to make its members aware that CHL-holders are welcome.

This simply should not be.

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Who carries to Church

Post by fjblackesq » January 27th, 2006, 10:55 am

WWJD ??????????

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