The Religion of Handguns

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nscale
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Post by nscale »

I have just recently decided to begin to carry a weapon for protection and my decision to carry the P-64 was without hesitation.
However, I have discovered the process of deciding what weapon to carry is not as straight forward for some folks.

When I first discovered the P-64 (not long ago), the ideal suitability of this weapon as a daily carry was immediately obvious to me, the size, weight and power seem perfect. So much so, that I purchased 2 more for my Father and his buddy who both desire to retire their revolvers for an autoloader.
Upon informing them of my purchase, they diplomatically declined taking and using the P-64. Mystified I had to know what their decision was based on. The information I received, at first, caused me to doubt my decision, after all these guys have been carrying weapons for years and both have extensive knowledge of guns, whereas I am a novice compared to them.

Their primary reasons are as follows:
1. The DA pull is too hard.
2. It has too much kick.
3. The magazine release is on the bottom and not on the side.
4. It only holds 6 rounds
5. It does not have a slide catch/release.

After consideration of their objections to the P-64. I have determined that the issue is not the acceptability of the P-64, instead the issue is their philosophy regarding what they deem acceptable in a weapon. As a result they have severely limited themselves.
Theirs is not an isolated opinion, as many folks have strong convictions regarding knockdown power, etc.
To make matters even more complicated, there seems to be no consideration for “WHAT” the weapon is used for. A few of these objections are reasonable for a target/range pistol, but are they relevant for a carry pistol?
A mans gun and his religion have much in common.
He knows what he believes, and he knows what he believes is the truth.
He may not understand why he believes it, what his convictions are based on, or how he learned what he believes, but to him it is the truth.
I guess that is why there are so many Churches and handguns. Everyone can find one that supports his beliefs.

Another factor is cultural influence. Consider this: The average American will accept a weapon that has similar or like features to the military 1911. This provides the standard or guidelines of acceptability. Now consider the Polish, or for that matter most Europeans. The list above is not even a consideration, and they probably would have a hard time understanding these objections. I did!

I have made a commitment to avoid a dogmatic opinion regarding my handguns and as a result want to try them all. I am having a great time researching, locating and especially shooting these unique and different weapons. I have even taken my Father along for the ride. Maybe one day he will understand that, you can use it like a SA, it is OK the dead guy won’t care, and the kick is not a problem for 6 rounds, and chances are good he will never need to replace the magazine quickly, and his revolver only holds 5 rounds, and OK it doesn’t have a slide release, so what!
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dfunk
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Post by dfunk »

Good points you have there. Fully stacked, you have 7 9x18 rounds at your disposal with surgical accuracy. If he's familiar with a 1911, the single action mode is what he likes and the P-64 strives in this condition. As far as caliber, to each his own. I certainly do not feel like I would be out-gunned by a guy who has a .45 while I have the 9x18, but like you pointed out - that's just me. Magazine changes are statistcally low, with the better part being nonexistent. If you can't do it in 7 rounds, then you sure as hell can't do it in 13. Funny that capacity and slide release are major attributes when a revolver has neither. Glad to see that your opinions haven't been swayed by anyone.
mongo
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Post by mongo »

I can tell you as a security expert and private investigator I sometimes carry the P-64 and here is why.

very small package. I can go places my USP would be "made" no matter how hard you try people that know what to look for can see a large frame handgun unless you put it under your ballsack. In a suit you cannot "make" this gun.

I again state if you expect trouble carry the biggest stick you can find and bring a friend with another stick, ie.. I carry .45 auto +P hollowpoints or the glasers if it is an office / crowd situation.

That being stated I will honestly tell you at 25feet I am "surgical" in rapid fire with the P64 and silverbears. no doubt I cannot do what I can do with the P64 with the USP. I admit it.

That being said in certain applications the P-64 is a better tool.

As to your friends and families ideas, gun opinions are like assholes and most peoples are not well researched with fact. They rely on Marshal, Ayoob or other superstars to tell them what they need instead of shooting a lot of guns and buying a few and putting in the range time.

If you are not at the range at least once a month putting at a minimum one box thru each of your carry weapons you do not have the information you need to make your choice.
Last edited by mongo on January 8th, 2006, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
xelloss
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Post by xelloss »

While I'll admit I'd like more firepower and a bigger round, many times such just isn't feasible... I can carry my P-64 to many places my 1911s or Hi-powers are just too big to carry... If I KNEW when and where I was gonna fight, I'd just roll out my buddy's MG42 and let loose (I'm sure abwehr agrees with me on this ;D)... Since I don't know when and where, I choose a firearm that I can carry at all times discreetly, thus the P-64... ;) ;) ;)

-Mark
kjeff50cal
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Post by kjeff50cal »

I have just recently decided to begin to carry a weapon for protection and my decision to carry the P-64 was without hesitation.
However, I have discovered the process of deciding what weapon to carry is not as straight forward for some folks.

When I first discovered the P-64 (not long ago), the ideal suitability of this weapon as a daily carry was immediately obvious to me, the size, weight and power seem perfect. So much so, that I purchased 2 more for my Father and his buddy who both desire to retire their revolvers for an autoloader.
Upon informing them of my purchase, they diplomatically declined taking and using the P-64. Mystified I had to know what their decision was based on. The information I received, at first, caused me to doubt my decision, after all these guys have been carrying weapons for years and both have extensive knowledge of guns, whereas I am a novice compared to them.

Their primary reasons are as follows:
1. The DA pull is too hard.
2. It has too much kick.
3. The magazine release is on the bottom and not on the side.
4. It only holds 6 rounds
5. It does not have a slide catch/release.

After consideration of their objections to the P-64. I have determined that the issue is not the acceptability of the P-64, instead the issue is their philosophy regarding what they deem acceptable in a weapon. As a result they have severely limited themselves.
Theirs is not an isolated opinion, as many folks have strong convictions regarding knockdown power, etc.
To make matters even more complicated, there seems to be no consideration for “WHAT” the weapon is used for. A few of these objections are reasonable for a target/range pistol, but are they relevant for a carry pistol?
A mans gun and his religion have much in common.
He knows what he believes, and he knows what he believes is the truth.
He may not understand why he believes it, what his convictions are based on, or how he learned what he believes, but to him it is the truth.
I guess that is why there are so many Churches and handguns. Everyone can find one that supports his beliefs.

Another factor is cultural influence. Consider this: The average American will accept a weapon that has similar or like features to the military 1911. This provides the standard or guidelines of acceptability. Now consider the Polish, or for that matter most Europeans. The list above is not even a consideration, and they probably would have a hard time understanding these objections. I did!

I have made a commitment to avoid a dogmatic opinion regarding my handguns and as a result want to try them all. I am having a great time researching, locating and especially shooting these unique and different weapons. I have even taken my Father along for the ride. Maybe one day he will understand that, you can use it like a SA, it is OK the dead guy won’t care, and the kick is not a problem for 6 rounds, and chances are good he will never need to replace the magazine quickly, and his revolver only holds 5 rounds, and OK it doesn’t have a slide release, so what!
What nscale neglected to mention is where we are located, Houston, Texas, weather has a big factor in what we wear and what we carry. along the gulf coast or for that matter the whole southwest U. S. we have about 4 weeks of "Winter" and the rest in the +80s. (it was pushing 80 today in H-town). Plus those who have Texas CHLs have to carry concealed, meaning if your handgun is known to the public and especially to a LEO you are in violation of the CHL and can be fined and arrested. Except some high priced 9mm Luger compact pistols and .357 J frame sized revolvers, the P-64 has the highest power to size ratio.
Last edited by kjeff50cal on January 8th, 2006, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
butch50
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Post by butch50 »

Power to size ratio: That's a very good description.

I wonder if there is a formula we could apply.....
raypol
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Post by raypol »

Nscale,
You are right in what you say about people not considering what the pistol will be used for when forming their opinion. They read too many gun magazines. In Texas you must be completely concealed with no print that is identifiable. Also, if you shoot someone in self defense, it better not be at 25' or you will certainly be explaining to a jury why you could not extract yourself from the situation at that distance. Any shot that is defensable will be at close range so big bore speed and penetration statistics are moot. I carry a P64 daily and shoot it regularly and the DA trigger pull is measured at 12 lbs. Let me assure you in the adrenlin of a self defense shooting, I won't have to cock the hammer and use the SA pull. At the range, I start each group with the DA pull just like I will in a situation.

The P64 is an excellent concealed carry pistol.

jpb
raypol
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Post by raypol »

While I'll admit I'd like more firepower and a bigger round, many times such just isn't feasible...-Mark
More firepower and bigger rounds are for police. CHL holders aren't going to use more than a couple of shots to extract themselves from a situation in most cases. If you decide you are going into a dangerous area and carry a bigger weapon a DA will bury you in jail for that.
He'll prove you were looking for someone to shoot.
jpb
xelloss
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Post by xelloss »

While I'll admit I'd like more firepower and a bigger round, many times such just isn't feasible...-Mark
More firepower and bigger rounds are for police. CHL holders aren't going to use more than a couple of shots to extract themselves from a situation in most cases. If you decide you are going into a dangerous area and carry a bigger weapon a DA will bury you in jail for that.
He'll prove you were looking for someone to shoot.
jpb
Not in this part of the country... ;D ;D ;D Indiana, however, is a VERY gun friendly state, and the DAs here tend to be a bit less politically inclined (i.e. anti-gun) then in many other states... CC holders who opt for bigger guns here aren't given a second look (at least, not in my area)... I know one guy who carries a 4" .44 Magnum in a shoulder holster for CC, and, as he's proficient with said gun, that's fine... It's just a lot easier for ME to carry my P-64 than a larger gun, and I don't really consider the 9x18mm round a weak round... For what it's made for (close-in work), it does just fine... ;D ;D ;D However, there are certain parts of this state that I wouldn't hesitate to move the P-64 to back-up and put a larger caliber, high capacity firearm on as primary (like my .357 Sig P226)...

What's suitable for police use is actually looked on more favorably in many courts than non-police standard arms... Police have no more right to own or carry high power handguns or hi-cap mags than citizens, and if you think otherwise than for shame on you... Most of the local law enforcement around here would agree 100% with this statement, including the chief of police, who shoots with me and my friends on occasion...

-Mark
daysleeper
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Post by daysleeper »

Power to size ratio: That's a very good description.

I wonder if there is a formula we could apply.....
Yep, that's a good question. I would think that simply dividing the size of the bullet by the size of the gun would get you most of the way there, and you could multiply the figure by the speed of the bullet but I'm not sure speed matters so much once it gets past a certain velocity.
butch50
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Post by butch50 »

A simple method might be to divide the loaded weight of the pistol in grams by diameter of the bullet in mm. Leavin out velocity or bullet weight as there are too many variables there.

The P-64 would be 678/9 = 75

I don't have any other gun stats handy, but say if you had a 10mm pistol that weighed 2,034grams the value would be 203.

Thing is it doesn't really give you a feel for the effectiveness of the round involved. Any ideas?
daysleeper
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Post by daysleeper »

Diameter would work work fine but the gun weight doesn't say anything about the size of the weapon. Maybe diameter/volume would be a better gauge, then multiply the whole thing by velocity and bullet weight to gauge its stopping power. (mm/cc) * v * g ?
xelloss
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Post by xelloss »

One formula for round effectiveness, developed by Kevin Dockery (a former Presidential guard armorer, Class III Gunsmith, and private contractor for the military), was the following:

Effectiveness = [(Mv x CS)/ 10] x Bf

where Mv = Muzzle Energy (ft/lbs)
CS = Cross Section of the round (inches squared)
Bf = Bullet Factor (where FMJ is 1, Semiwadcutter is 2, and JHP is 5)

Hope this helps... :) :) :)

-Mark
butch50
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Post by butch50 »

Volume makes better sense than weight, I agree. Weight doesn't tell you much due to the various materials that might be involved, but volume is volume.

What about volume divided by the effectiveness formula posted above? Anyone here good enough with math to do the numbers on the P-64 and say Bulgarian Mak and a 45 1911 to see how the numbers would shake out?
tunnelrat
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Post by tunnelrat »

Volume makes better sense than weight, I agree. Weight doesn't tell you much due to the various materials that might be involved, but volume is volume.
Good point! I have a Glock 27 that offers significantly more firepower than my P-64. The .40 caliber Glock carries ten rounds of ammo that is heavier, wider, and faster than 9X18. Unfortunately, the volume of the Glock (thick, wide, clunky) makes it awkward for inside the waistband carry. My P-64 is not nearly as powerful, yet it is much more handy.

A 12 gauge shotgun offers a significant power to weight ratio, but it is not so easy to carry or conceal. Somehow we need to factor in "ease of carry".
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