Effectiveness of th 9x18

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manwithagun
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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by manwithagun » September 6th, 2007, 6:34 pm

Being a 9x18 virgin, I'm not at all familiar with the power or lack thereof of the round for defensive purposes. I'm assuming it lies somewhere between a .380 and a 9MM Para which leaves a pretty wide gap. I've only seen one or two offerings in regard to bullet type (ball or HP) and would probably opt for the deeper-penetrating ball over an HP in so small a round.
Any hard facts? Any real-life data out there? I sure lots of folks have been shot with it in Eastern Europe and the former (some say still) Soviet Union.
Can I bet my life on this round/pistol combo?

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manicmechanic
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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by manicmechanic » September 6th, 2007, 9:27 pm

Here ya go, get on your board and do some surfin! It's just some gool ole boys comparing some itty bitty guns in some different cals, through the same water jugs.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by himmel » September 6th, 2007, 10:42 pm

Before reading those threads, I just felt like commenting--I don't think that Mak would have survived so long as the issue sidearm for the Soviets and their satellites if it weren't at very least fairly effective--(now all the historians out can there show me wrong! LOL! )

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by himmel » September 6th, 2007, 10:56 pm

OK, I read 'em--Neat stuff! 9x19 ball (and .32 ball !!) out-penetrating 9mm Para and .40 S&W JHP!! :-X !! But MY question is--if we want to STOP 'em, not necessarily KILL 'em--do we really need 12" of penetration?? Some one help me here...
Last edited by himmel on September 6th, 2007, 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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volfandan
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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by volfandan » September 6th, 2007, 11:04 pm

himmel,

I hate to sound negative, but growing up....my best friend's dad was an FBI agent and also a member of the FBI SWAT Team. He was a 3 tour Vietnam vet with Marine ground infantry. When he spoke, we listened.

He told me to always remember this:

1. Don't EVER pull a gun on someone unless you're 99% sure you're going to have to shoot.

2. Don't EVER shoot to wound. If you have to shoot...shoot to kill, period.

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by redfestiva » September 6th, 2007, 11:09 pm

Here ya go, get on your board and do some surfin! It's just some gool ole boys comparing some itty bitty guns in some different cals, through the same water jugs.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm
Fasinating reading for sure. I never would have predicted the poor performance of the 40 caliber but still there would be alot of knock down power and a big leaking hole to spite the penetration. According to those tests, ball ammo in the P-64 would be best in the winter because a leather jacket could potentially rob much of the penetration. How bout that .32 round failing to get through denim? Embarrassing.

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by himmel » September 6th, 2007, 11:43 pm

himmel,

I hate to sound negative, but growing up....my best friend's dad was an FBI agent and also a member of the FBI SWAT Team. He was a 3 tour Vietnam vet with Marine ground infantry. When he spoke, we listened.

He told me to always remember this:

1. Don't EVER pull a gun on someone unless you're 99% sure you're going to have to shoot.

2. Don't EVER shoot to wound. If you have to shoot...shoot to kill, period.

I understand that well enough--doesn't sound negative to me, just sensible--but my question still holds. Shooting COM or even head shots, it still seems that for civilian SD purposes, down-and-out but alive beats dead-but-only-after-he-got-to-you. I recently read about the famous "Miami shootout" Apparently the first round the BG took was fatal, but it took him 4 minutes to die, during which time he killed two good guys and wounded several others. A second BG was put out of the fight from the start with a single non-fatal round that rendered him unconscious for several minutes, and unable to function effectively thereafter. I will concede, however, that all of the rounds that were fired were intended as fatal shots...

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by himmel » September 6th, 2007, 11:44 pm

Here ya go, get on your board and do some surfin! It's just some gool ole boys comparing some itty bitty guns in some different cals, through the same water jugs.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm
Fasinating reading for sure. I never would have predicted the poor performance of the 40 caliber but still there would be alot of knock down power and a big leaking hole to spite the penetration. According to those tests, ball ammo in the P-64 would be best in the winter because a leather jacket could potentially rob much of the penetration. How bout that .32 round failing to get through denim? Embarrassing.
Well, he DID say it was obviously a squib round--but still... :'(

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manicmechanic
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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by manicmechanic » September 7th, 2007, 9:14 am

Here's some more info from Mr. Camp himself. So go hang ten and get your baggies on too! It's a Surfin Safari!

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum_p ... TID=239997

This lower link is the one embedded inside the above link, ok?

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comp ... rovetc.htm

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trent
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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by trent » September 7th, 2007, 11:08 am


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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by devlinfaust » September 7th, 2007, 1:40 pm

The powrball is the most devesting thing I've ever used, either in 9mm Mak, .40 or 9mm. It just seems to destroy whatever it hits.

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volfandan
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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by volfandan » September 7th, 2007, 7:10 pm

himmel,

I hate to sound negative, but growing up....my best friend's dad was an FBI agent and also a member of the FBI SWAT Team. He was a 3 tour Vietnam vet with Marine ground infantry. When he spoke, we listened.

He told me to always remember this:

1. Don't EVER pull a gun on someone unless you're 99% sure you're going to have to shoot.

2. Don't EVER shoot to wound. If you have to shoot...shoot to kill, period.

I understand that well enough--doesn't sound negative to me, just sensible--but my question still holds. Shooting COM or even head shots, it still seems that for civilian SD purposes, down-and-out but alive beats dead-but-only-after-he-got-to-you. I recently read about the famous "Miami shootout" Apparently the first round the BG took was fatal, but it took him 4 minutes to die, during which time he killed two good guys and wounded several others. A second BG was put out of the fight from the start with a single non-fatal round that rendered him unconscious for several minutes, and unable to function effectively thereafter. I will concede, however, that all of the rounds that were fired were intended as fatal shots...
I know what you mean. I guess the point that my friend's dad was trying to make was that:

A. If you truly have to shoot in fear for your life, then it's you or him.....and make sure it's him.

B. Secondly, you don't want a wounded guy (who might now be even somewhat disabled from your shot) brewing in prison for several years.....just thinking of you and your family. Sounds like movie stuff, but this guy (FBI Agent / FBI SWAT) was the real deal....and he didn't josh around about anything.

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by himmel » September 8th, 2007, 12:28 pm

Overall I agree--I do have counter-example of sorts-- a woman I represented in her divorce when I worked for legal aid. It was a family-violence type deal (that's the only kind of divorces we took on the taxpayer's dime). Her hubby got rough with her and she wound up shooting him with a 20-gauge in the midsection. He was a big ol' boy, it didn't do that much long-term damage to him really, ( he was in fine shape for the divorce/custody battle a couple of months later) but it put him down long enough for her and her kids to get away. The local law didn't press any charges against her--but who knows what might have happened if she had killed him instead of just wounding him? But your point is valid--in a shooting-type situation, the idea is to inflict the most immediate damage on the BG as possible--and that rules out intentionally "shooting to wound". And in most cases, it's better, aftermath-wise, if there's no BG left to "stew" about it...

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by manwithagun » September 9th, 2007, 4:23 pm

Thanks all. Close to what I had expected, I suppose. As volfandan pointed out, there should only be one reason to ever pull the trigger in defense of oneself. I do understand the difference between a bullet's stopping power and a bullet's killing power. Having an attacker absorb 6,7,8 rounds and keep'a comin' only to die 30 minutes later while eluding police is, IMO not acceptable. This was part of the great 9MM vs 45 ACP in the old Col. Cooper days. 9MM ball was intended to over penetrate a target - leave them to bleed out on the battlefield. A slow death would occupy the target, a medic ... maybe a buddy or two to help him off the field of battle. In a street crime/home invasion/etc., the goal is an immediate end of hostility. Whether the wound is fatal is irrelevant; the goal is to stop the attack. I would think that a minor caliber such as the 9x18 would be more of a 'head and heart' gun anyway. Certainly, I would not expect a one-shot-stop from a center of mass hit. I have heard good things about the PowerBall ammo, though. I will look into that further in consideration as a defensive load.

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Effectiveness of th 9x18

Post by carguy » September 19th, 2007, 9:19 pm

With all of the comments and opinions regarding the stopping power of 45cal or the lack there of of a 9x18 or 9x19. I find it interesting that the SWAT team that put on a demo at my gun club last week (in another thread) highlighted in part of their presentation to us that "a couple of 9s" will take care of anyone that needs taking care of. These guys carry 9x19 and 40 cal handguns and were very upfront about their satisfaction with the 9mm round for self defense.

The old adage of, shoot them with a 45 and you just need to be close and you'll knock them down...baloney. A 45 is in my opnion the best of stopping power but as the power of a round increases the size and bulk of the weapon itself increases to make the control manageable.

Bottomline...it is a trade off...pick the caliber you can shoot accurately and the handgun you can carry, control and conceal well. I won't say rather a 22 well placed than a 45 miss but I'd rather have a 9x18 p64 than a baseball bat...that's for sure!! ;D
Last edited by carguy on September 19th, 2007, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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