Reason for CCW

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amd6547
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Reason for CCW

Post by amd6547 » February 13th, 2006, 9:47 pm

I feel sorry for you, daysleeper-you have already given up your rights, and when the man comes for your legally registered gun (presuming he allows you to have one), you will no doubt meekly hand it over, after all, it is for the good of everybody, isn't it?
One of my friends moved to a state that has the system you propose--New York. This upstanding, educated, and well employed taxpayer had a father who was a WWII veteran of european tank battles who had three shermans shot out from under him. This veteran wanted to give his son a pristine Luger he personally had taken from a German. No matter how hard my friend tried, he could not get a permit to bring that Luger to NY. Of course, if he were a crooked cop, or a politician on the take with connections, there would be no problem. This is what you get, daysleeper. It is either freedom for all, or freedom for none.
"I was so much older than, I'm younger then that now..."

mikethewreck
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Reason for CCW

Post by mikethewreck » February 14th, 2006, 6:20 am

One concept that may be helpful here is the two sided coin of rights and responsibilities. I am somewhat extreme in my view of the Second Amendment in that "shall not be infringed" means just that and all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Does that mean I am for criminals having guns? I personally believe you forfeit none of your rights if you are a convict. Does an ex-con lose his First Amendment rights? Why the Second? Is he no longer deemed to merit the right to self defense? I do believe in locking up people who commit crimes against another with a firearm for a VERY long time. You have the right to carry AND the responsibility to do so properly IMHO.

butch50
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Reason for CCW

Post by butch50 » February 14th, 2006, 10:50 am

I agree with you on that Mike. If a person is convicted of a crime involving a gun, the penalty should be stiff. But, once his time is served, he should go right back to full constitutional rights, including the 2nd. We should see the 2nd in exactly the same light as we do the others.

We have a self destructive pattern of legislative behavior in the USA. Often when a particularly hideous crime is committed we attempt to stave off all future possible recurrances by legislation. It is a method that punishes everyone for what one person has done. It is an attempt to stop my future crimes, crimes that I will not commit, by restricting my freedom.

Remember when JFK was shot with an imported military surplus rifle? Next thing we had laws prohibiting the importation of military surplus. Because of the hideous act of one person, millions were punished. That is the knee-jerk reaction of a poorly educated democracy.

It is in fact the very reason that we have so many laws against guns from open carry all the way down to prohibitions against ownership. Punishing the masses for the infractions of the few in the past. There is no reason, no reason at all, that I personally can not be trusted to carry a fully automatic short barreled short stocked assault rifle openly in public. Yet, because others have not been reliable, I am not allowed.

We should have a system that punishes individuals for crimes against others, and stops there. Once that individual has been punished, he should start with a clean slate. IF he/she then displays a pattern of repeat behavior the second offense should put that person away for a very long time, to the extent that a third offense would be unthinkably rare.

Gun control laws are just plain illogical, however emotionally packed an issue. I have no doubt that if our Congress could legislate our very thoughts, they would. They should not be allowed to legislate our potential future actions.
Last edited by butch50 on February 14th, 2006, 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

himmel
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Reason for CCW

Post by himmel » February 14th, 2006, 1:08 pm

I'd have to think about that one, guys--Felons don't lose their First Amendment rights--perhaps, how about the convicted sex offender who broke his parole by writing about having sex with kids--but they lose their right to vote, and i am not terribly unhappy about that--otherwise we might be dealing with President Gore--and I am similarly not too bothered that they lose Second Amendment rights...at least not yet

mikethewreck
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Reason for CCW

Post by mikethewreck » February 14th, 2006, 7:57 pm

The problem is who is a criminal. Your collecting firearms is criminal according to some. It would be in DC, for example. There are a lot of folks out there who have had a lot of rights taken away, and I hope not to join their club...

butch50
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Reason for CCW

Post by butch50 » February 14th, 2006, 10:32 pm

Sex offenders, child molesters on up should face an onerous sentence. But, once that individual has been punished, he should start with a clean slate. IF he/she then displays a pattern of repeat behavior the second offense should put that person away for a very long time, to the extent that a third offense would be unthinkably rare.

Third offense would then be a life sentence without parole.

It is a simple formula for serious crimes - punish the offender, but don't punish me and you just because we might someday maybe commit the same crime perhaps.... Punish the offender in such a way that he/she is unlikely to repeat, and if they do repeat punish in such a way that they are truly unlikely to repeat, and if they do then lock them up for good.
Last edited by butch50 on February 14th, 2006, 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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steve98664
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Reason for CCW

Post by steve98664 » February 15th, 2006, 3:02 am

I don't think gun control works. I don't think reducing the number of pistols sold to legal buyers gets guns out of the hands of criminals. Only legal gun buyers cooperate with the laws.

Registering the guns now after years and years of unlimited distribution is foolish. The people who go through the legal method of buying, registering, background checks, etc. are the group that we should be least worried about. Why do we need to document them?

How have drug laws removed those illegal substances from common distribution? How would removing guns be any more successful? Who would end up possessing all of the firearms if they were outlawed.....criminals!

If we can't stop thousands of people from crossing our borders, how would we secure our borders from illegal importation of weapons for criminals?

Fines and laws won't stop desperate criminals from possessing and acquiring weapons.

I just watched the news showing a 70 year old guy and his wife robbed in a home invasion. Maybe he wouldn't have been able to use a gun to protect himself.....but nothing would have made me happier to hear than the criminal was shot during a home invasion by that home owner!

I don't support all of the NRA's agenda's. However, the basic right of a person to buy and possess self protection weapons is needed now more than ever.
Last edited by steve98664 on February 15th, 2006, 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

p64pro
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Reason for CCW

Post by p64pro » February 15th, 2006, 3:06 pm

daysleeper
You claim you "are not liberal or conservative,you don't play that game" but you say "the Constitution is DEAD". Even most hardline conservatives wont go that far. That's about as far left as you can go. And just like most lefties, when faced with the truth (like you have heard in this thread), you resort to some far-out statistic or incident, like the Vice President's accident,or just make something up like you did in your other post. And when that doesn't work, you just get mad and quit.
Don't you realise the very things you are arguing against are the reasons you have your P64 in the first place? You also say "it's you decision to protect yourself". The same Constitution gives you that right also. I hope the time does not come where you have to hand over your firearms like a good little liberal.
I challenge you to comeback and answer.

Thank God for the Constitution, and your right to believe as you will.
Last edited by p64pro on February 15th, 2006, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fjblackesq
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Reason for CCW

Post by fjblackesq » February 15th, 2006, 3:21 pm

Those who say "he has served his time, repaid his debt to society" are just liberal minded do gooders living in ivory towers. Once a creiminal, as adjudicagted by the legal system, always a criminal. Brand their foreheads with aq capital "C" and cut off their right hand, and keep them in iropn cages so we can throw rocks at them. When they die, take their chiuldren to take their places. Enough is enough, time to get serious ab out criminals. Ted Kennedy first!

k75rt
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Reason for CCW

Post by k75rt » February 15th, 2006, 7:49 pm

Daysleeper,
You started it by making a Pro- Gun Control statement on a Pro-Gun forum, when asked to follow up your vague claims that the NRA is or isn't you as a typical elitist liberal can not and can only resort to bashing honest gunowners...basically stating that we can't be trusted... next time you want to pick a fight on a forum at least come with your gloves on. I think the Daysleeper is a troll and doesn't warrant any more thought....now get on over to MoveOn.org or VPC.org where you belong!
Last edited by k75rt on February 15th, 2006, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rtroha
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Reason for CCW

Post by rtroha » February 15th, 2006, 7:55 pm

I just like the idea of licensing and tracking the weapon. So it would be a little harder for us to get a weapon while the crooks could still get one easily. Big deal.
You do realize that Canada has spent a billion dollars on a gun registration system that has failed to solve a single crime?

daysleeper
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Reason for CCW

Post by daysleeper » February 15th, 2006, 9:07 pm

(sigh) I think you guys got your threads mixed up. I didn't quote any statistics, didn't make anything up, certainly didn't get mad. Not a liberal, leftist or elitist. Wasn't picking a fight. I didn't say people here couldn't be trusted, but I wouldn't advise anyone to go around trusting people you don't know from Adam. I did insult skinheads, neo-nazis, gang-bangers, criminals, Charleton Heston, Dick Cheney and any idiot stupid enough to go hunting with Cheney. What can I say, it's a free country (in my most conservative voice). And I'm not a troll, been here since the get go. And I didn't quit the thread, I said that there wasn't anything for me to add. People were starting to wrap themselves in God and the flag and there's no reasoning after that. But if you want me to post in this thread just keep misrepresenting me and I'll cut and paste what I actually said.

fjblackesq
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Reason for CCW

Post by fjblackesq » February 16th, 2006, 1:09 am

rtroha = interesting comment about gun control. or lack thereof, in Canada,---where did you get that info??????

slimster22
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Reason for CCW

Post by slimster22 » February 16th, 2006, 12:40 pm

Came back after a few days out. Read Daysleeper's posts (after it was said he/she/it would post no more on this). I'll just address the reply to me and not the others. The constitution has been a good document since written, not just for its' time. Please read it if you get a chance and you will find that out. It was written with the knowledge that there will always be those who want to control us. It gave us the framework to control the govt' ourselves. Only since we have moved away from those priciples have we seen the slide into a dumbed down and more criminal nation. Make it harder for us to get the guns, not the criminals. That is just an odd statement and I find it difficult to derive any logic from it. Nice attack on Cheney. It is, as your other posts are, ill-informed and inaccurate, but don't let that stop you. Unfortunately, my friend you do fit a typical political spectrum stereotype. I'll bet you consider yourself a middle of the roader. We'll add you to the list of great moderates in history. Oh wait, there aren't any. That classification is saved for the whiners that moan about things, but never really investigate topics deep enough or with enough objectivity to gain a real understanding of the causes of societal issues. Freedom is not won, it is constantly fought for. I pray the day will return again, when any person can walk in to the local drugstore and pickup up a 38 s&w and some shells without any paperwork or waiting. Only then will we all be equal again.

himmel
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Reason for CCW

Post by himmel » February 16th, 2006, 1:14 pm

rtroha = interesting comment about gun control. or lack thereof, in Canada,---where did you get that info??????
I don't know about rtroha, but that info has been the subject of much discussion in Canadian newspapers, and is likely one of the reasons the Liberal party was voted out in the last election. It was a textbook example of many of the ills we are talking about here--a proposal to register all the firearms, in order to "keep track " of them for purposes of identifying the criminals who used them in crimes. Was promised to cost a couple mil, almost immediately ballooned into billions, was widely scoffed at in the western provinces, complained of by sensible law enforcement officials as a waste of effort on their part, fell hopellessly behind from the start, was of course completely ignored by the criminal element, etc, etc...

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