I feel like I am missing something here.
Let me first say that I have not carried my P64 as a CCW, but only because I've gotten so comfortable with my little Kel Tec P32 after having gotten tired of dressing around a double stack 9mm (XD). But I do have a holster for it and I keep thinking it's gotta be a more effective round than the .32 (Although at typical self defense range, I am not feeling under-gunned with any caliber....a whole other discussion).
But I at least have a holster for the P64 ....more than I can say about a few other guns I've owned but never carried.....currently that would include a beautiful and insanely accurate .45 1911 which is way too heavy for me, and a .22 target pistol that would probably make a BG falll down laughing (maybe I should carry it and count on that reaction ;D....and besides, I'm not sure .22 Stingers aren't any less potent than a .32 acp round).
Anyway, if I were to carry the P64, the way I see it is this: The only ways that would make sense to carry would be either with one in the tube, hammer down and safety off, or with an empty chamber and safety off.
Now I am pretty well convinced that with the hammer down as described by "9x28Shooter", the firing pin is not only blocked, but the hammer can't go forward of the "half cock" (for lack of a better term, even though I know it is inaccurate re: the P64) without pulling the trigger.
Pulling the gun and racking a round may be slow, but I'd think it's still a faster way to get the gun into "condition one' than trying to release the safety.....that safety just is too awkward and too hard to move.....and in a high stress situation, I think it would be easier to rack the slide than to fiddle with the safety....at least regarding speed.
I wish I knew someone who could give a definitive answer....one we could bet our lives on (literally) as to the safety of hammer down (half cock) with a round in the chamber. With the heavy double action trigger, this would seem the most sensible, perhaps the ONLY sensible way to carry this gun and be prepared for self defense without having to fiddle with that ridiculously awkward safety - or having to rack the slide.
I believe the IDF and many in law enforcement are trained to carry semi autos without a round chambered. However, soldiers and policemen are probably less likely to need to draw from concealment and fire with the kind of unexpected urgency a civilian may need to deal with in a self defense situation.
Peace,
D.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
D,
You just detail that pistol and get all that factory gunk out of the safety pocket, reassemble with light grease on the rails and a drop of oil on the safety and the other parts that you know require it. A really good cleaning is what the personnel issued P-64s in Poland were required to do, and the factory didnt bother, as this pistol is a military and police issue. Then take it to the range and put a few boxes of fmj through it and you will most likely find that the safety is no problem to operate and your pistol will eat anything you feed it, 9x18-wise, including HPs. The stiffness in the DA pull will ease up a bit with DA firing, though many of us don't bother to fire in Double Action mode, and like it stiff for safety reasons. Don't neglect to dissassemble the mags and clean the inside of them, and lightly oil inside and out before reassembling. Lightly, but thoroughly, as in wipe with a clean, oiled rag.
The P-64 is incredible, but it takes some getting acquainted with the operation to fully appreciate it.
Every little issue has been gone over and over in the archives of this forum and, of course, searching and reading will benefit you greatly.
Don't try to make it into an American modern semi-auto pistol.
Discover the genious behind the design of the P-64. Familiarize yourself with it and you will begin to see how well and reliably it can serve you.
Perceive some attitude beginning with this post:
http://p64.proboards67.com/index.cgi?bo ... 1149017901
Note: A trick we've all learned is to detail-dissassemble the P-64 in a large clear plastic bag, because certain small springs will go flying, for the unfamiliar.
Then, when you have your P-64 really clean and in good working order, you should carry it with one in and the safety ON.
Welcome aboard!
bZinggg.
You just detail that pistol and get all that factory gunk out of the safety pocket, reassemble with light grease on the rails and a drop of oil on the safety and the other parts that you know require it. A really good cleaning is what the personnel issued P-64s in Poland were required to do, and the factory didnt bother, as this pistol is a military and police issue. Then take it to the range and put a few boxes of fmj through it and you will most likely find that the safety is no problem to operate and your pistol will eat anything you feed it, 9x18-wise, including HPs. The stiffness in the DA pull will ease up a bit with DA firing, though many of us don't bother to fire in Double Action mode, and like it stiff for safety reasons. Don't neglect to dissassemble the mags and clean the inside of them, and lightly oil inside and out before reassembling. Lightly, but thoroughly, as in wipe with a clean, oiled rag.
The P-64 is incredible, but it takes some getting acquainted with the operation to fully appreciate it.
Every little issue has been gone over and over in the archives of this forum and, of course, searching and reading will benefit you greatly.
Don't try to make it into an American modern semi-auto pistol.
Discover the genious behind the design of the P-64. Familiarize yourself with it and you will begin to see how well and reliably it can serve you.
Perceive some attitude beginning with this post:
http://p64.proboards67.com/index.cgi?bo ... 1149017901
Note: A trick we've all learned is to detail-dissassemble the P-64 in a large clear plastic bag, because certain small springs will go flying, for the unfamiliar.
Then, when you have your P-64 really clean and in good working order, you should carry it with one in and the safety ON.
Welcome aboard!
bZinggg.
Last edited by bzinggg on July 26th, 2007, 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
But doesn't it defeat the "concealed" part if people can hear the parts all rattling around in that plastic bag in your pocket. And how do you keep the cartridge in the tube while in the bag?
8~)
I apologize for my irreverence but I just couldn't resist!!
8~)
I apologize for my irreverence but I just couldn't resist!!
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
;D
"clean and in good working order implies reassembly...
...and carguy: Make sure you've included all the little parts in the bottom corner of your bag before discarding, as I suspect may have been your practise on other "some assembly re'quired" occasions! ;D ;D ;D
"clean and in good working order implies reassembly...
...and carguy: Make sure you've included all the little parts in the bottom corner of your bag before discarding, as I suspect may have been your practise on other "some assembly re'quired" occasions! ;D ;D ;D
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
arghhhhhh!
8~)
touche`
8~)
touche`
Last edited by carguy on July 26th, 2007, 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
how do you like that zastava, himmel? I had concidered one but never heard any reviews
It was my main carry gun for quite awhile--Chris had my P64 in his work area all the time making grips ::) and the Zastava seemed to just fit on my left hip, Mexican-style. I had a few issues with jams until someone here on the board explained "rim-lock" to me, I think I have that issue solved. It's a heavy gun, all steel, so there is practically no recoil. But it's a locked breech (!) design--I would be more confident in its accuracy if it was a fixed-barrel blowback. At SD ranges it will do, tho, and I do think the .32 is adequate at those ranges It has a really light trigger, once the safety is off it takes hardly any pressure to fire. And it's single action--I carried it cocked-and-locked. The safety is really easy for me to work--frame-mounted, right at the right level, just a quick sweep down with my thumb and it's ready to fire. It's a nice little gun, solid and reliable once you solve the rim-lock issue, very concealable and reasonably accurate. I would actually rather have another DA tho now, just for added safety--but the thing was so inexpensive (right at $150 OTD) that I can't trade it even-up for anything close to it in value--whatta dilemma, huh?? ::) And it conceals better than anything else I have except the P64. If they are still that inexpensive, it is definitely worth it if you aren't a big-caliber snob...
If only it had a good half-cock (it has none, hammer is either fully cocked or fully down) I wouldn't consider trading it at all.
Last edited by himmel on July 26th, 2007, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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devlinfaust
- Forum supporter
- Posts: 174
- Joined: March 30th, 2006, 5:05 pm
- Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
I also have two Kel-Tec .32's. They don't have near the stopping power of the P-64, but I don't think that there is any other pistol that will give you the firepower of that much magazine capacity, in that small a package, that weighs so little, as the Kel-Tecs. A simple design, but nothing to mess with, you don't have to cock it first, etc., etc.,
If I had to go into an emergency situation, the Kel-Tec .32 is not the first thing I'd reach for. By the same token, there are times when even a P-64 is not conealable,a nd the small Kel-Tec almost always is concealable, so I carry it sometimes--more often in the summer.
Rule #1 of a gunfight "have a gun."
If I had to go into an emergency situation, the Kel-Tec .32 is not the first thing I'd reach for. By the same token, there are times when even a P-64 is not conealable,a nd the small Kel-Tec almost always is concealable, so I carry it sometimes--more often in the summer.
Rule #1 of a gunfight "have a gun."
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
Heck, graveyards are full of people killed by .22 long rifle, so a 32 is no problem for meit is definitely worth it if you aren't a big-caliber snob...
I appreciate it, I'll definately be looking around for them (I just bought a cz82 so I have to wait at least a little while before I purchase anything else).
p.s. can spare mags for these be found anywhere?
Last edited by trent on July 26th, 2007, 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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beasleydano
- Forum supporter
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- Joined: November 10th, 2006, 8:12 pm
- Location: Horn Lake, MS
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
Trent
I bought a CZ 82 with 8 mags! I have not yet received but when I do I will have some extra mags for sale.
I bought a CZ 82 with 8 mags! I have not yet received but when I do I will have some extra mags for sale.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
Bzinggg....I have thoroughly cleaned the P64. My real issue is not so much with the stiffness of the safety, but the awkwardness of engaging and disengaging it. Hard to imagine disengaging it under the kind of stress that would justify a draw from concealment as I understand CCW laws (at least here in Florida - I'd think pretty much the same anywhere). And I've had my CCW license quite a long time.
As far as loosening the safety, I'm confident enough in my abilities to do that if I thought that was the real issue. But I'm just more convinced (so far) but obviously NOT positive, that the safety is superfluous if the hammer is "half cocked" (again...for lack of a better word). But unless I were 100% sure, and so far I am not, I will not carry it that way (or at all as of yet).
As for "break-in"...this gun was an unfired 1976 when I bought it a few months ago. Like virtually every other center-fire pistol I've ever owned, it has been 100% reliable out of the box so I'm not sure I am much of a believer in "break-in". Although I know some manufacturers suggest it (like Kimber I think), and I know most folks like to get a bunch of rounds down range before they consider the gun reliable and "broken in". I would agree to be sure the round one intends to carry will feed.....but I think either it will or it won't.
In my experience I've only had a few jams with some .22 semi autos, but never with any center-fire. I currently have a Springfield .45 (1911) that has thousands of rounds through it (all weights and bullet profiles) and has been 100% with everything. I just sold an XD9 Subcompact, have an old (1968) but like new "Mustang" size (mini-1911) .380 Llama, and my EDC Kel-Tec P32. I have a Govt. Target Ruger .22 that DOES jam maybe one time in a hundred. Fine for target shooting, not for self defense. But it seems to only happen with the cheap bulk package crap from Walmart.
I've had other semi autos in the past and the same held true with them....none ever jammed except for a mid 1980s Colt Gold Cup, which I also considered a target gun rather than a self defense weapon. I recently got rid of an old S&W 461 9mm that also never jammed (just had a horrible DA/SA trigger - and could NOT be manually cocked like the P64 since the trigger did not protrude from the slide).
Oh, and Bzinggg...thanks for the links, but I think I've read every post on this forum. I'm still just not 100% sure about how safe it is to carry safety off, hammer at "half-cock" (or whatever the right term is).
As to the caliber issue brought up here (by me and others) .....the Zastrava (sp?) .32 (knew they made cars, did not know they made guns :-X), Kel=Tec, whatever - as has been said, for civilian self defense use, it has always been my belief that any caliber will do because in virtually every justified self defense situation you will be pretty much within arm's reach of your target.
And this is where I am hesitant about having to waste time fiddling with the safety on the P64. I would believe I can have my pocket carried P32 in an assailant's nostril or in his ear within less time than it would take to disengage the P64 safety. Or to rack it's slide. The safety on a 1911 - whole different story. Very fast, intuitive and many (not me, but many) actually hold the 1911 in a manner that releases the safety (resting thumb on safety).
SOooooooo.....can anyone say for sure if it is truly safe in real world terms to carry the P64 with the safety OFF and the hammer at whatever that "half cock" position would properly be called? (with a round chambered of course).
Thanks all.
Peace,
D.
As far as loosening the safety, I'm confident enough in my abilities to do that if I thought that was the real issue. But I'm just more convinced (so far) but obviously NOT positive, that the safety is superfluous if the hammer is "half cocked" (again...for lack of a better word). But unless I were 100% sure, and so far I am not, I will not carry it that way (or at all as of yet).
As for "break-in"...this gun was an unfired 1976 when I bought it a few months ago. Like virtually every other center-fire pistol I've ever owned, it has been 100% reliable out of the box so I'm not sure I am much of a believer in "break-in". Although I know some manufacturers suggest it (like Kimber I think), and I know most folks like to get a bunch of rounds down range before they consider the gun reliable and "broken in". I would agree to be sure the round one intends to carry will feed.....but I think either it will or it won't.
In my experience I've only had a few jams with some .22 semi autos, but never with any center-fire. I currently have a Springfield .45 (1911) that has thousands of rounds through it (all weights and bullet profiles) and has been 100% with everything. I just sold an XD9 Subcompact, have an old (1968) but like new "Mustang" size (mini-1911) .380 Llama, and my EDC Kel-Tec P32. I have a Govt. Target Ruger .22 that DOES jam maybe one time in a hundred. Fine for target shooting, not for self defense. But it seems to only happen with the cheap bulk package crap from Walmart.
I've had other semi autos in the past and the same held true with them....none ever jammed except for a mid 1980s Colt Gold Cup, which I also considered a target gun rather than a self defense weapon. I recently got rid of an old S&W 461 9mm that also never jammed (just had a horrible DA/SA trigger - and could NOT be manually cocked like the P64 since the trigger did not protrude from the slide).
Oh, and Bzinggg...thanks for the links, but I think I've read every post on this forum. I'm still just not 100% sure about how safe it is to carry safety off, hammer at "half-cock" (or whatever the right term is).
As to the caliber issue brought up here (by me and others) .....the Zastrava (sp?) .32 (knew they made cars, did not know they made guns :-X), Kel=Tec, whatever - as has been said, for civilian self defense use, it has always been my belief that any caliber will do because in virtually every justified self defense situation you will be pretty much within arm's reach of your target.
And this is where I am hesitant about having to waste time fiddling with the safety on the P64. I would believe I can have my pocket carried P32 in an assailant's nostril or in his ear within less time than it would take to disengage the P64 safety. Or to rack it's slide. The safety on a 1911 - whole different story. Very fast, intuitive and many (not me, but many) actually hold the 1911 in a manner that releases the safety (resting thumb on safety).
SOooooooo.....can anyone say for sure if it is truly safe in real world terms to carry the P64 with the safety OFF and the hammer at whatever that "half cock" position would properly be called? (with a round chambered of course).
Thanks all.
Peace,
D.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
d, you ask a reasoned question! I do believe it is safe to carry with the safety off, and there are others here that have backed that up, including the owner of this forum (dickfunk).
Saands, our gunsmith - can you comment?
The only thing I can add, and it's admittedly weak; as far as pistols breaking in - I have heard that Glock states that their pistols need a several hundred round breakin. I have read that on forums only; if anybody here buys Glocks can they confirm that?
As far as the P-64 breaking in - you may find rounds easier to feed once the feed ramp smooths a bit, and the pull on the DA trigger will eventually feel smoother. But it seems from your experience that may you expect that.
Saands, our gunsmith - can you comment?
The only thing I can add, and it's admittedly weak; as far as pistols breaking in - I have heard that Glock states that their pistols need a several hundred round breakin. I have read that on forums only; if anybody here buys Glocks can they confirm that?
As far as the P-64 breaking in - you may find rounds easier to feed once the feed ramp smooths a bit, and the pull on the DA trigger will eventually feel smoother. But it seems from your experience that may you expect that.
Last edited by nbender on July 26th, 2007, 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
beasley, sorry I meant magazines for the zastava, but hey when you get in the cz mags let me know how much you want them to sell for.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
"Oh, and Bzinggg...thanks for the links, but I think I've read every post on this forum. I'm still just not 100% sure about how safe it is to carry safety off, hammer at "half-cock" (or whatever the right term is)."
D,
This response is confusing to me. I said carry with "one in and the safety ON." In spite of long monologues and ernest protestations to the contrary, I remain of this opinion.
bZinggg
Add edit: I have no trouble operating the safety on my P-64s whatsoever. I grip the pistol in the normal way, and use the first knuckle on my thumb: clickup, clickdown, no problem. I think many just want this eastern bloc military pistol to be like modern American commercial firearms that they have become used to. And the safety operates in the opposite direction which disconcerts them because they are not used to it and putting in the time it takes to really familiarize themselves with the P-64 is just to much trouble! Well, if they have this problem, I suggest they just pony up the extra money and shoot Amercian guns they feel comfortable with.
I like both, and own both. However, this descent into the rattling brass of verbosity wearies me and I defer further comment to the multitude of other vastly more qualified and experienced folks out there who have just begun to type on, ad infinitum.
Good Day and blah blah blah blah blah b,lha splgt herfgtmmjg ..............ungpf.
D,
This response is confusing to me. I said carry with "one in and the safety ON." In spite of long monologues and ernest protestations to the contrary, I remain of this opinion.
bZinggg
Add edit: I have no trouble operating the safety on my P-64s whatsoever. I grip the pistol in the normal way, and use the first knuckle on my thumb: clickup, clickdown, no problem. I think many just want this eastern bloc military pistol to be like modern American commercial firearms that they have become used to. And the safety operates in the opposite direction which disconcerts them because they are not used to it and putting in the time it takes to really familiarize themselves with the P-64 is just to much trouble! Well, if they have this problem, I suggest they just pony up the extra money and shoot Amercian guns they feel comfortable with.
I like both, and own both. However, this descent into the rattling brass of verbosity wearies me and I defer further comment to the multitude of other vastly more qualified and experienced folks out there who have just begun to type on, ad infinitum.
Good Day and blah blah blah blah blah b,lha splgt herfgtmmjg ..............ungpf.
Last edited by bzinggg on July 26th, 2007, 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
"Good Day and blah blah blah blah blah b,lha splgt herfgtmmjg ..............ungpf."
What?
What?
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beasleydano
- Forum supporter
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- Joined: November 10th, 2006, 8:12 pm
- Location: Horn Lake, MS
Concealed Carry with one in the tube?
Trent
Zastava? My mistake. I know a guy who may have some Zastava mags! I will check with him.
Zastava? My mistake. I know a guy who may have some Zastava mags! I will check with him.