Did I almost blow my gun up?

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dfunk
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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by dfunk » November 12th, 2005, 5:32 pm

Went to shoot today and put 138 rounds of Silver Bear 115 gr hollow points down range. Not one hiccup or malfunction. But...
I retrieved some spent casings and noticed a bulge down near the bottom. I'll post pics when I can, but, is it the ammo or the gun?

It was surgical, I must say...

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by b52stan » November 13th, 2005, 12:09 am

Have heard some bad stuff about the Silver bear russian ammo, and don't think that 115 gr is good for this small pistol, anyway. Notice that most other 9x18 is in the 90 to 95 gr range.
Heavier bullets = harder recoil, too. Fiocchi, S&B, Barnaul, Norinco, and CCI are good quality. Sounds like a Silver Bear ammo problem, but you'll know as soon as you try some better ammo.
JMHO, Stan

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by abwehr » November 13th, 2005, 5:30 am

I have only shot Wolf in my Makarovs, and never seen this problem. I have read the same about Silver Bear ammo that "b52stan" refered to, but I have no first hand information.

One thng I do know is that submachine guns that I have fired in the military did the same thing. The Grease Gun would produce some UGLY bulges of the fired case. The Sten and THompson would also produce bulges, but I felt this was due to the point of ignition when the case just seated and fired almost simultaneously. When the round fires, it is also in the process of being extracted, thus the unsupported rear of the case bulged. This is just a thought???????

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by dfunk » November 14th, 2005, 9:17 am

Here are some pics of the ammo I was using when this happened.
Image
Image

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by abwehr » November 14th, 2005, 12:35 pm

Man, that is not prettty! How does a round look when you manually seat a round into the chamber (pistol disassembled of course)? does the rear of the cartridge stick waaaay out? It almost appears that the round is still in the barrel when the case is being pulled out and the pressure is still high. I hope someone with more knowledge jumps on this onewith a better answer!

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by amd6547 » November 20th, 2005, 1:11 pm

I didn't notice that with my P64. I looked at the cases for primer flattening and such, and everything looked normal. I have also shot this ammo in the CZ82, and had no issues there either.
Did your P64 have any polishing or work done on the feed ramp? I gave mine a light polish with dremel and felt wheel and fine polish (not that it needed it--just for gunsmithing practice).
As delivered, the feed ramp was blued and is now polished bright.
As abwehr asked above, what is the visual relationship between the feed ramp and the base of the cartridge when you drop one in the chamber?
"I was so much older than, I'm younger then that now..."

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by dfunk » November 20th, 2005, 2:38 pm

All I have for pics is my crappy little webcam, but here is what it looks like. Does it look abnormal?
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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by abwehr » November 20th, 2005, 3:53 pm

dickfunk,

The rounds in the barrel certainly look normal to me! Have you changed to the lighter weight recoil springs! The fired cases almost look like the case is exiting the chamber while the pressure is still high and that is what is causing the slight bulge. I am stumped for a definitive answer???????

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by dfunk » November 20th, 2005, 9:56 pm

The rounds in the barrel certainly look normal to me!
I thought so, too. I should have retrieved a casing from the 2 boxes I shot prior to this, but didn't think about it - I was having too much fun! I haven't changed or modified or even polished anything. I cleaned it and shot it. Maybe a bad box of rounds? Makes you wonder what type of quality control they have over there... ::)

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Post by abwehr » November 21st, 2005, 2:23 pm

dickfunk,

Another thought, how far were the fired cases being thrown? If they were being thrown into "outer space", the recoil spring may be weak. This is the case with the G3 and CETME rifles. The rounds in the rifles should be thrown about 10', but when they go 20', there is something wrong with the recoil system.

Also, were most of the casings being thrown into the same general area, or spot? Erratic ejection sometime denotes a problem with the recoil system. Just a few other thoughts to consider.

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by b52stan » November 21st, 2005, 3:32 pm

Why are you guys trying to blow up your guns? It's pretty obvious to me that the 115gr as loaded, is too much mass and energy for this little pistol, and it's obviously a very hot load to be achieving the same velocities as the 90 to 95 gr rounds that this gun was made to shoot. I also posted before, that simple physics dictates that this round will kick like hell, as well, and would bet is causing the case dent, which is a WARNING.
How many 115 gr Bear problems do you have to see here and on other boards to get the idea? Recommend you review the lengthy, detailed list of 9x18 loads I posted. Notice how many of these are over 95 grains.
JUST TRYING TO MAKE THE LIGHT GO ON BEFORE YOU HURT YOURSELF. P-64'S CAN BE REPLACED, BUT FINGERS USUALLY CAN'T.
Last edited by b52stan on November 21st, 2005, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by abwehr » November 21st, 2005, 7:23 pm

b52stan,

After re-reading your original post, you do make a lot of sense with the 115 gr. bullet. I have never used Bear ammo, so I can't comment on it, but I have read good and bad on the Forums???? At least I won't be buying any Bear ammo now.

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by erehwesle » November 21st, 2005, 9:16 pm

I think I'll be staying away from Bear given dick's experience and b52's good point about 115 grain bullets not being what this gun is designed for.

I've so far been using winchester white box which is 95 gr.

Has anyone tried the Hornady XTP ammo yet?

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by dfunk » November 21st, 2005, 9:19 pm

Well, it's my own fault I guess. All I had available at the time wre the 115 gr bullets. The casing were unifrom in their ejected direction, however, I was at an indoor range so I had a little stall separater wall on both sides of me. I definitely won't be shooting these or any other 115 gr loads out of the 64 again! The case bulge was enough and I love my little gun and don't want bad things to happen to it.

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Did I almost blow my gun up?

Post by b52stan » November 21st, 2005, 9:55 pm

Sorry if I came off a little snooty, but I reload for the 223, 22-250, 243, 25-06, 270, 7mm-08, and 308. I try different bullets, cases, powders, and primers, until I can get sub 1/2" moa. If I can't, I trade the rifle in. That's why I'm so aware of bullet wts, hot loads, and recoil.
There is probably nothing wrong with the Bear products. It's just that this load was meant for a stouter weapon, or at least one with a stronger recoil spring. Sounds like the slide is slamming against the frame. Ssands may get better results with his improvement, but the recoil will still be a lot heavier than the lighter wt loads.
Same thing applies to all Pistol loads. My 45 kicks much more with a 230 load than it does with a 165 or 185 load, given similar pressures. And in the P-64, I think most of us do not want increased recoil.
I'd at least save the 115 loads until you get a stronger recoil spring in the gun. The weak spring is probably most of the cause of nasty recoil, since the gun is not really that light for the 9x18 round. If you have a Mak, the 115's may be ok.They're not much heavier but do have a much better recoil spring.
Again, sorry if I came off as a know it all, but my experience was crying out for me to share what little I know.
Stan
Last edited by b52stan on November 21st, 2005, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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