Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

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Borg Warner
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Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by Borg Warner » February 18th, 2015, 12:15 am

I never thought I'd use a DA/SA gun as a carry gun but until Glock makes a truly compact single stack 9mm or keltec makes a pf9 with a reliable extractor, I'll carry my 1975 P-64 or a pre-1980 S&W airweight snubby. The ammo I carry in the p-64 is the Hornady 90 grain critical defense and Underwood 115 grain hardcast which develops 1000 fps. The first four rounds are Hornady and the last 3 are the Underwood.

I figure if I need to use the gun in the gravest extreme, and the first four shots do not neutralize the threat, the last 3 will.

The underwood ammo is pretty snappy but it can be controlled. I also would not want to shoot very much of this plus +ammo in the gun because of the stress that it no doubt puts on the gun. But now that I've tried it I know what to expect with it and will be using other ammo for practice and use the underwood ammo only as carry ammo..

And as far as practice with the DA/SA trigger I've found that I can cock that hammer pretty fast for an accurate and deliberate first shot. Otherwise I carry a shrouded hammer smith and Wesson which has an xlnt DA trigger. My P-64 trigger spring and recoil spring have both been replaced by Wolff Springs installed by my gunsmith.

MartyW
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by MartyW » February 18th, 2015, 6:04 pm

Hi Borg,

You've touched on a subject that I've been reading/thinking about for the past couple days. I too have a nice P-64 (1974) that I purchased specifically for ccw. I've had my permit for several years but now am just beginning to actually carry. I thougt long and hard about what to carry, and the P-64 was my choice for the reasons we all know. Super reliability and toughness. Like so many other folks here, I love the weight, the steel, and the proven performance.

With the help of the kind folks on this forum, I quickly got my P-64 in great ccw condition with 22# recoil spring & 18# hammer sping, by Wolff. Those mods along with working the safety with Lucas assembly lube and putting a drop of hi-viz fingernail polish on the rear of the front sight blade have made this P-64 one real sweet shooter. I've tried several different types of ammo to see what it might not like but it likes everything I've thrown at it. Thanks for the Underwood info, and I'll order some of that to try out and then put with my Hornady CD in case it is ever needed for real.

On the DA/SA subject, I saw a thread over on the defensive carry forum where a very knowledgable fellow, who has instructed for many years, talked about the risks of using a DA/SA gun for ccw. He mentioned training needed, and I'm aware of that and feel like you that my practice has shown that the first shot can be on target within a reasonable distance, and of course then the following shots are even better. And I feel that operation of the safety (which he cited as another negative) is being ingrained in my subconscious (I'm working on that at the range). The main thing that this fellow stated that caught my attention about his negative DA/SA feelings is that under that one adreniline-filled & stress-filled moment of needing to use the gun in a real life/death situation, that the big difference in trigger pulls between DA & SA has been known to cause subsequent non-intended discharges. Is your answer (and anyone else who would like to respond) to this to always pull the hammer and use all shots in SA?

And evidently (? I take this from reading a few threads on the dc forum) there has been talk about attorneys using the DA/SA machanism as another negative against a person when a case gets to court. Have you (or anyone else who would like to respond) ever heard of this?

Again, I'm a newbie at actually carrying and I want to do all the thinking I can in advance. I'm an older fellow, trained with guns all my life, and I know the seriousness of all this. So the more I can learn, the better.

Thanks Borg, and thanks to all,
Marty

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Curly1
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by Curly1 » February 18th, 2015, 9:01 pm

I have not heard of the SA/DA argument.
Did these arguments hold up in court against the shooter?

I have heard the reloading ammo argument that you are making special killing loads to make you look bad.

One of the foremost things that runs thru my mind if I ever have to use it is situational awareness.

Specifically what is downrange of me if I miss or it is a thru and thru.

That is were you can get into trouble.
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craig
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by craig » February 18th, 2015, 9:20 pm

MartyW - did you also replace the firing pin spring or leave the stock spring in place?
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MartyW
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by MartyW » February 18th, 2015, 11:01 pm

Curly1, I had not heard of the DA/SA argument either and that's why I'm asking here, trying to learn as much as I can. I love the P-64. I love it so much that I was considering buying a second one while they are plentiful in such good shape, and that's when I began looking at anything I could find about other ccw pistols to see if I should get another P-64 or maybe something else, and I ran across this argument. But there were several folks who were also defenders of the DA/SA and said they will continue to use them for carry. I have no idea about how things held up or hold up in court, but I was surprised that the subject came up and I'd sure like to hear from anyone who has awareness of this subject. Here's a link to that thread:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/def ... s-huh.html

Craig, I left the stock firing pin spring and stock safety detent spring. In my browsing I saw where folks replaced the recoil and hammer springs but I didn't see any folks (that I can remember) replacing the firing pin spring. Is there an advantage in changing the fp spring? Mine has been absolutely flawless with the 22/18 combo that was recommended here. I ordered a new safety detent spring thinking that I might try cutting one to two loops off the stock spring to ease safety operation but I read in other posts that the safety could get loose enough to engage during firing, so I just kept working the safety with Lucas assembly lube that was recommended here and that made a great difference.

Any and all input greatly appreciated,
Marty

Edit: I found this article that does some explaining:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications

This makes me wonder if I should re-think the nice easy new 18# hammer spring and put the stock spring back in. Used in SA the original spring is fine. I'd be interested to hear from others after they read that article. Thanks to all.

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by gemini1 » February 19th, 2015, 1:09 am

Marty, let me guess, that instructor over at the other forum uses a glock?
Regardless of the firearm type one gets, training is key. Those 1911 guys who carry cocked & lock, wouldn't be carrying condition one unless they're confident that the sequence of operation is engrained in their head. Same with the DA/SA holders.
I dont ccw, but when at the range, I always spend a least a mag, or 10 rounds, practicing draw, disengage safety shoot DA then SA. I do this at home too when dry firing practice.
As for gun mods, Im not worried about lighter springs to smoothen the gun's operation. What I wont do, is to use handloads as carry rounds.

MartyW
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by MartyW » February 19th, 2015, 3:59 pm

The fellow that wrote the first article had used all action types in his career, and his main point was that the DA/SA needed more training to use it as a ccw due to the different trigger pulls in DA & SA, but we all know that. I still love the DA/SA P-64 and still plan to use mine as ccw.

The second article is a Must-Read for all who use the P-64 for defensive or ccw and have made any modifications.
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications

This article is by legal folks talking about gun modifications and how modifications are viewed in lawsuits. It opened my eyes and I'm glad I found it. In my mods to my P-64 I swapped out the hammer spring from the original 20-24'ish lb pull to an 18 lb pull. I found another review of the P-64 that says that the P-64 came from the factory with a 4-lb pull in SA mode. So, I think I've probably dropped below that 4 lb SA pull, possibly significantly, by installing the lighter 18 lb hammer spring. I've ordered a trigger pull gauge today so that I can double check that SA pull weight. From that legal article from Armed Citizen referenced above, I'm gonna use my assortment of hammer springs (I've got several from Wolff now as well as the original) to make sure that I have a SA pull of at least 4 lbs when all is done. My practice at the range has been, and will continue to be, cocking the hammer on draw and using all shots SA with the P-64, so DA pull won't be of prime importance. If anyone hasn't read that article, please do so if you have put in one of the lighter hammer springs and use the P-64 for defensive or ccw.

All the best,
Marty

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by Borg Warner » February 20th, 2015, 10:20 pm

On the legal issues it all depends where you live and how anti-gun your state or locality is. If you live in an anti-gun state they will screw you any way and every way they can if you dare to use a gun to save your own life from some dirtbag recidivist. I live in Washington stare and It's a shall issue state and only recently have they started to pass some anti-gun laws and generally if it's a justified shooting they are not going to go out of their way to screw you and there just are not any precedent's yet for some shyster lawyer or prosecuting attorney having done that.

Last year there was a case where a man shot someone in the head as that someone was driving away with the homeowner's truck which is not justifiable to use lethal force to defend property, but the shooter claimed that when he yelled at the thief to halt he said the thief turned around and he wasn't sure it the thief had a gun or was going to back up and run the man over with his own truck, so he fired. The shooter was coinsistant and never deviated from his story and also showed remorse for having killed someone and was cleared of all charges and that's how it usually goes in my state. They usually give the benefit of the doubt to those who use lethal forcewhoi are licenced to do so and have a clean record.. In other more anti-gun states they the tend to rule in favor of the recidivist criminal and not the citizen.

As far as DA/SA, it is not the best system there is but I've found that what works for me is to cock the hammer with my thumb and then fire the gun just like you do with a Colt Single action and that can actually be done faster than you might imagine just as someone with training can swipe the safety off of a 1911 on your first shot.

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by MartyW » February 20th, 2015, 11:08 pm

Thanks Borg, I'm in TN which is also a gun friendly state, but we plan to do some semi-retirement traveling to other states that might not be as friendly. Like you, I've been working at the range using all SA cocking the hammer on draw.

After reading all that legal stuff (which was unknown to me until the past couple days) I'm sticking with the rock-solid reliable P-64 for carry and I'm gonna set the hammer spring back to whatever spring is needed to give at least a 4'ish lb SA pull which is still sweet. I have several hammer springs to choose from.

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by Curly1 » February 20th, 2015, 11:55 pm

Depending on what states you are traveling in you may not be able to posses a handgun, check each states laws for reciprocity of CCW permits.
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Gary

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by MartyW » February 21st, 2015, 12:11 am

Thanks Gary, the only states we're currently planning on visiting do honor the TN carry permit. We get a book in our carry classes that shows which states honor our permits and many states do honor it.

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by snailman153624 » February 21st, 2015, 2:18 am

Curly1 wrote:Depending on what states you are traveling in you may not be able to posses a handgun, check each states laws for reciprocity of CCW permits.
I don't think any state bars you from transporting it in a locked container while unloaded (lame, I know).

Also, there is a federal statute that protects you when you are just passing through. As long as you don't stay in one area more than 24 hours, even things the state doesn't allow (such as hollow point ammunition) are OK if it's legal where you left from, and where you are going to. Don't take my word for it, do some research.

Clarification: The inter-state travel/transportation exemption is for the items themselves. Each state can still restrict the means by which you transport said items (i.e. they may not allow you have the firearm loaded, or concealed on your person, etc.).
Last edited by snailman153624 on February 21st, 2015, 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MartyW
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by MartyW » February 21st, 2015, 4:18 am

Thanks snailman, that's good info to know. I will check with our local police friends.

Borg Warner
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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by Borg Warner » February 21st, 2015, 3:42 pm

snailman153624 wrote:
Curly1 wrote:Depending on what states you are traveling in you may not be able to posses a handgun, check each states laws for reciprocity of CCW permits.
I don't think any state bars you from transporting it in a locked container while unloaded (lame, I know).

Also, there is a federal statute that protects you when you are just passing through. As long as you don't stay in one area more than 24 hours, even things the state doesn't allow (such as hollow point ammunition) are OK if it's legal where you left from, and where you are going to. Don't take my word for it, do some research.
I knew a guy when I lived in Los Angeles California in the the belly of the beast, who was being carjacked and being held by the neck and being punched in the face through the driver's side window and he was somehow able to take the keys out of the ignition and then threw them past the guy who was attacking him and when the guy went to chase after the keys and they landed under another car in the parking lot he was in, which made it hard for the guy to get them, My friend was able to actually get a gun out of the locked box, load it and point it at the fool who grabbed for it and forced him to shoot the bastard.

in most circumstances most people carrying a gun in the legal manner would not have been that lucky and could have been Killed by a law that was supposed to save lives.

Most of the time I lived in L.A. I carried illegally. But I did apply for a carry permit but was denied because I wasn't a movie star or a politician or some "Important" person whose life is supposedly worth a lot more than a mere commoner or working man. Howeverhaving on record that I applied for a permit would have helped my legal defense if I was ever caught carrying illegally to show that I tried to follow the law but was denied being able to do so. Anyway now I've moved from a slave state to a free state where all have equal protection under the law.

And I STLL carry illegally when I go down there because I'm a firm believer of it being better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. And while I believe in obeying the law I also believe in practicing civil disobedience in DIS-obeying unjust laws.

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Re: Underwood ammo, Hornady ammo

Post by Ketchman » February 21st, 2015, 4:20 pm

This is an excellent topic, trigger pull weights. I have a 17lb hammer spring in mine and like it very much. I was very careful to try and feel a difference in pull weight in SA after replacing the original hammer spring because the stock pull weight was so light, especially for a military design and I think it is not much if any lighter than stock. However, I am not trained to detect such differences. Marty please post what you find after you do your tests. I think many of us here have wondered what changing out the hammer springs to lighter weights meant for the SA pull.
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