Trigger Pull

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bigduke6
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Trigger Pull

Post by bigduke6 »

Got my first P64 in 2009 it was a 67. The trigger pull in DA was heavy but not "crazy" I didnt know what all the fuss was about. After I had one I started looking at everyone I came across and found the trigger pull in DA was all over the map while SA was somewhat constant. WHY! I understand machined objects can very from one to another but in this case the MAIN gremlin is the hammer spring. So what do you think is the cause? meatal urgy, temper, machine prosses or what?
snailman153624
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by snailman153624 »

I think it may largely have to do with the hammer spring exerting some serious force on the action, to the point that it's borderline binding. Basically, the metal digs in hard enough to not want to slide smoothly. I think if the metal grain happens to be a little smoother on some vs. others, and hence slides more easily.

The DA on the one I've fired was not possible to use. The trigger would bind badly and would likely break the trigger pin before the hammer would release (2 or 3 fingers applying ridiculous amount of force, and I have very strong hands). An 18lb hammer spring solves all of the issues.
tai
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by tai »

Is there anyone who can accurately report their DA trigger pull in # with 17, 18 or 19# RP Wolff mainsprings?
tai
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Re: Single action trigger Pull

Post by tai »

Since my last post I've obtained a manual trigger pull gauge.

In comparison to the Lyman digital (I don't own or use one) mine appears to read a bit low, but I am happy with it for the price that was paid. I'd estimate that if not entirely accurate, I believe it is accurate to -1/2# at most, probably less- this is just my opinion). In any event, it does measure pull up to 11# and in 1/4# increments.

What is your DA and SA pull?

My readings DA- no surprise, beyond 11# with P-64 and with S&W 442.

SA pull P-64- pretty much 3#. A bit unsettling, I always cycle first round at home with safety ON. I don't think it is hair trigger, but coming close.

Anyone know what official definition of hair trigger is? Anyone know what official definition of hair trigger is in terms of pull weight? Anyone know if an 'official' definition even exists? :hi:

Other readings:
Springfield XD-9- 6#
Beretta M9A1 - DA 9.5# (factory)
6.5- 7# (Ed Brown 1911 [19#] Competition Hammer Spring)

SA 4.5 (factory)
~3.6- 4# (Ed Brown 1911 [19#] Competition Hammer Spring)

These were range of average pulls, usually 10 or more, above, except Springfield measured twice, only.

All firearms stock except P-64, which I purchased used. I am pretty certain that hammer spring and possibly recoil spring were changed. Gun has had at least two prior owners. I have no other details re the P-64.

Cheers,

p.s. I always try to dry-fire P-64 with snap caps.
wlockridge
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by wlockridge »

When the P64 was originally manufactured, the ammunition available at the time, was also used in their sub-machine gun(s). Therefore the primer caps were made of very hard material in order to solve a problem with slam-fires when that weapon was used in full auto mode. As I recall, that is the official reason given for the pistol being made with the very stiff trigger mechanism. It kind of makes sense if you think about it. If you've already got a bunch of sub-machine pistols/guns floating around, you wouldn't want a bunch of ammunition of the exact same size and calibre floating around with two different kinds of primers and indistinguishable from one another by sight alone. I guess it was just easier and cheaper to train them to cock the pistol first as they were made for military and security personnel in the first place. After between 2 to 3 hundred rounds my trigger pull became quite manageable . I didn't file, grind, or sandpaper anything. I used a small drop of LUCAS assembly lube at all contact points along the line and changed the trigger spring to the Wolff 18# version. I was going to trim a couple of coils off the spring to try and get it down a little more but then I read reports of some people experiencing light strikes when doing this so I decided against it. At first the results were so so, but then I began firing it in DA mode every time and by the third or forth box the difference was huge. I've probably fired 8 or 10 boxes through it now and I stopped the DA only regiment at around the 4th box. I don't have a way to measure the trigger pull mechanically but I would closely compare it to my Taurus 2" 38spl. I can now easily manage the first shot without cocking the weapon and keep it in a 2" ring at 25 feet. It's reliable and consistent with no light strikes. I hesitate to attempt to redesign any firearm in any substantial way without a very good, proven safe reason for doing so. I always figure the engineers at the factory have forgotten more about gun making than I'll ever know. I don't know if this would work for everyone or every weapon, especially if someone has already been after it with a file or a grinder, but it worked really well for mine. Hope this helps someone. Everyone stay safe.
Shoot first, Shoot straight, and hit what you're aiming at, if you can do these things and have six rounds of ammo, you'll have two thirds more than you need to prevail.
tai
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by tai »

wlockridge wrote:
"trigger spring to the Wolff 18# version."



For benefit of newbies and myself, I thought this was perhaps a typo, and you were referring to 18# hammer spring/mainspring.
tai
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by tai »

Anyone know what official definition of hair trigger is? Anyone know what official definition of hair trigger is in terms of pull weight? Anyone know if an 'official' definition even exists? :hi:

Later: Did a Google Search. Seems to be very subjective, no objective standard other than it can set off merely by a hair dropping on it, so it appears to be a figure of speech in a sense...what may be a hair trigger to some could be 3#, to others 2#, etc. Okay. Term original in early 19th Century.

I don't consider 3# SA trigger on my P-64 to be a 'hair trigger' but it's getting close as far as my comfort zone. I would not want it to be much lighter. I have surprisingly shot off a round or two downrange without intention due to combination of recoil and its lightness. Has that happened on occasion to anyone else?

May try shaking my firearm in SA mode unloaded to see if hammer drops. Will report back.

Okay, it must be due to the recoil and lightness of trigger that I've had these occurrences. I shook the unloaded firearm a bit in SA mode just now and the hammer remained cocked.

There will be a learning curve for this trigger; due to its lightness in future I will train to go beyond reset point before firing next shot.
Last edited by tai on March 30th, 2014, 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
wlockridge
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by wlockridge »

tai wrote:
wlockridge wrote:
"trigger spring to the Wolff 18# version."



For benefit of newbies and myself, I thought this was perhaps a typo, and you were referring to 18# hammer spring/mainspring.
Yes, sorry, I meant hammer spring.
Shoot first, Shoot straight, and hit what you're aiming at, if you can do these things and have six rounds of ammo, you'll have two thirds more than you need to prevail.
snailman153624
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by snailman153624 »

I think there is a way to solve the light SA, heavy DA trigger pull...it would require either a progressive rate spring, or two springs stacked in series...one of the springs would be lighter, and used during the initial draw of the DA pull; this spring would become more or less fully compressed during the initial uptake, and the stiffer spring would then take over, during the SA portion of the trigger pull (where the hammer is mostly already cocked).

If I had access to an assortment of springs, I'd be willing to experiment with this.
tai
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by tai »

I have what I now consider to be a 'hair' trigger in SA mode with my '69 P-64.

Reasonably certain prior owner(s) switched the hammer and possibly recoil springs.

I think the DA pull is acceptable but SA pull as measured by my manual trigger pull gauge is 3 lbs, or perhaps less.

Since I am left-handed, and have decided to nonetheless carry pistol with safety ON for various reasons, and SA pull is so very light, and shots have been fired that were not exactly planned but were somewhat of a 'surprise', I am thinking less and less of using gun for self defense but more as a fun gun to shoot at the range and to admire it for its quite distinctive appearance and historical attributes.

My S&W 442 would be better and safer for concealed carry if I ever encountered a defensive situation at nighttime. It also has a CT laser attached.

When I was in need of funds I almost sold the 442 but things improved somewhat so I did not have to part with it. I'm glad about that.
Last edited by tai on April 6th, 2014, 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Curly1
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by Curly1 »

I have a mod60 snubby which was my first pistol and would never sell it either.

It has a lot of carry time on it.
Laugh Hard and Often.

Gary
tai
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Re: Trigger Pull

Post by tai »

Yes, two reasons that you have for keeping it-first gun, and pretty good for carry. Sure there are other reasons as well.

Cheers,
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