Ammo
-
- Member
- Posts: 57
- Joined: May 17th, 2010, 11:20 pm
- Location: Northern Michigan
Re: Ammo
Unless there's more to your question, any of the ComBloc 94-95gr ammo should be a very close approximation if not identical to the Polish ammo for shooting purposes. The actual ammunition it was used with initially was designed for their SMG at the time, the PM-63, and had a very hard primer. This is what led to the heavy main spring (not the original intent of the designers) and horrible DA trigger pull we associate with the stock P-64. I would guess it would be hard to come by in the US and other than for collector's, sounds less than desirable for actual shooting.
Perhaps one of the Polish posters would be able to comment? I'm curious if the ammo designed for the PM-63 continues to be used today by the agencies there that still carry the P-64?
Perhaps one of the Polish posters would be able to comment? I'm curious if the ammo designed for the PM-63 continues to be used today by the agencies there that still carry the P-64?
NRA Life Member
- lklawson
- Senior member
- Posts: 469
- Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
- Location: Huber Heights, OH
- Contact:
Re: Ammo
The heavy hammer spring also helps reduce recoil.DocCasualty wrote:Unless there's more to your question, any of the ComBloc 94-95gr ammo should be a very close approximation if not identical to the Polish ammo for shooting purposes. The actual ammunition it was used with initially was designed for their SMG at the time, the PM-63, and had a very hard primer. This is what led to the heavy main spring (not the original intent of the designers) and horrible DA trigger pull we associate with the stock P-64.
I don't know how close it approximates the ammunition in question, but Buffalo Bore makes a top-end pressure curve "hot" 9x18 Makarov offering. Bring your wallet.I would guess it would be hard to come by in the US and other than for collector's, sounds less than desirable for actual shooting.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
-
- Member
- Posts: 57
- Joined: May 17th, 2010, 11:20 pm
- Location: Northern Michigan
Re: Ammo
Well since the slide acts on the hammer to cock it for the next shot, the hammer spring resists that action, thus applying forward force, in turn reducing recoil.DocCasualty wrote:How does the hammer spring reduce recoil?
An example would be manipulating the slide with the hammer down vs back. We all know that it takes more force to pull the slide back if the hammer is down. That same force equates out to recoil resistance.
Weasel
When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force my friends is violence.
When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force my friends is violence.
-
- Senior member
- Posts: 291
- Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm
Re: Ammo
I think the hammer actually increases felt recoil. Think about the extreme case, a hammer that didn't budge at all (equivalent to an infinitely stiff spring). Your hand would have to absorb all of it.
An ideal energy dissipation would have infinitesimally small spring stiffness, coupled with infinite travel. This would spread the energy out over an infinite amount of time. The shorter the distance the slide has to travel, and the stiffer the spring, the less time the energy has to dissipate before the slide hits the stop. This is the definition of an impulse, a.k.a. recoil.
The hammer increases the spring stiffness for at least part of the slide's travel, which means the recoil energy transfers into your hand in less time.
An ideal energy dissipation would have infinitesimally small spring stiffness, coupled with infinite travel. This would spread the energy out over an infinite amount of time. The shorter the distance the slide has to travel, and the stiffer the spring, the less time the energy has to dissipate before the slide hits the stop. This is the definition of an impulse, a.k.a. recoil.
The hammer increases the spring stiffness for at least part of the slide's travel, which means the recoil energy transfers into your hand in less time.
- lklawson
- Senior member
- Posts: 469
- Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
- Location: Huber Heights, OH
- Contact:
Re: Ammo
Nah. Mechanical energy gets gets bled out of recoil and absorbed in compressing the spring which is then stored as potential energy (with some loss as friction and heat). It is directly analogous to rubber buttpads on shotguns and spring butt-stops on some rifles. The recoil compresses the spring/rubber. What the spring fails to absorb (for various reasons) gets passed on to the mount (shooters hand, etc.)snailman153624 wrote:I think the hammer actually increases felt recoil. Think about the extreme case, a hammer that didn't budge at all (equivalent to an infinitely stiff spring). Your hand would have to absorb all of it.
An ideal energy dissipation would have infinitesimally small spring stiffness, coupled with infinite travel. This would spread the energy out over an infinite amount of time. The shorter the distance the slide has to travel, and the stiffer the spring, the less time the energy has to dissipate before the slide hits the stop. This is the definition of an impulse, a.k.a. recoil.
The hammer increases the spring stiffness for at least part of the slide's travel, which means the recoil energy transfers into your hand in less time.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
-
- Senior member
- Posts: 291
- Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm
Re: Ammo
The hammer effectively increases the recoil spring stiffness. Would you replace your soft rubber butt pad with a hard rubber one?
Everything it absorbs gets passed on (other than frictional losses), it's just spread out over a larger period of time (unless your slide locks back, such as on the last shot in the mag).
Everything it absorbs gets passed on (other than frictional losses), it's just spread out over a larger period of time (unless your slide locks back, such as on the last shot in the mag).
-
- Member
- Posts: 57
- Joined: May 17th, 2010, 11:20 pm
- Location: Northern Michigan
Re: Ammo
I believe the physics involved is much more complicated than anything described here. More importantly, I think the effect of the hammer/mainspring on recoil, felt or otherwise is negligible and certainly not noticeable .
I did change out the stock mainspring for a 17# Wolfe ages ago and certainly felt no difference (i.e. - no worsening of recoil). While many have changed out the slide spring for a stiffer one (which I never did), even that has led to mixed results regarding felt recoil, with many reporting no improvement. It's a small, relatively light pistol with a stiff round. Springs just aren't going to make much of a difference when it comes to recoil, unless they were taken to such an extreme that they would be impractical.
I did change out the stock mainspring for a 17# Wolfe ages ago and certainly felt no difference (i.e. - no worsening of recoil). While many have changed out the slide spring for a stiffer one (which I never did), even that has led to mixed results regarding felt recoil, with many reporting no improvement. It's a small, relatively light pistol with a stiff round. Springs just aren't going to make much of a difference when it comes to recoil, unless they were taken to such an extreme that they would be impractical.
NRA Life Member
- lklawson
- Senior member
- Posts: 469
- Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
- Location: Huber Heights, OH
- Contact:
Re: Ammo
Sorry, but it really is that easy. Just like springs on your car.snailman153624 wrote:The hammer effectively increases the recoil spring stiffness. Would you replace your soft rubber butt pad with a hard rubber one?
Everything it absorbs gets passed on (other than frictional losses), it's just spread out over a larger period of time (unless your slide locks back, such as on the last shot in the mag).
But I can see that you will not be convinced.
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
-
- Senior member
- Posts: 291
- Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm
Re: Ammo
...do you think that putting stiffer springs on your car would soften the ride?
- lklawson
- Senior member
- Posts: 469
- Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
- Location: Huber Heights, OH
- Contact:
Re: Ammo
Sorry, friend. I guess I wasn't clear in my last post. I'm not going to argue with you about it. No point to it, wastes both of our time, and clutters up the board.
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."
-
- Senior member
- Posts: 291
- Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm
Re: Ammo
While I appreciate your cordial response, there's nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but to each his own.
-
- Global moderator
- Posts: 3575
- Joined: February 26th, 2006, 6:59 am
- Location: LAKELAND FL.