Ammo

Info, pictures, advice...
Jmnx33
Posts: 8
Joined: March 30th, 2013, 6:08 pm

Ammo

Post by Jmnx33 » April 4th, 2013, 7:23 pm

What kind of ammo now days can you get to replicate what the polish shot out if the p64?

SalemCat
Junior member
Posts: 48
Joined: January 24th, 2013, 3:28 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by SalemCat » April 5th, 2013, 3:37 pm

What about 9X18 Brown Bear or Silver Bear ?

User avatar
DocCasualty
Member
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 11:20 pm
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Ammo

Post by DocCasualty » April 6th, 2013, 9:59 am

Unless there's more to your question, any of the ComBloc 94-95gr ammo should be a very close approximation if not identical to the Polish ammo for shooting purposes. The actual ammunition it was used with initially was designed for their SMG at the time, the PM-63, and had a very hard primer. This is what led to the heavy main spring (not the original intent of the designers) and horrible DA trigger pull we associate with the stock P-64. I would guess it would be hard to come by in the US and other than for collector's, sounds less than desirable for actual shooting.

Perhaps one of the Polish posters would be able to comment? I'm curious if the ammo designed for the PM-63 continues to be used today by the agencies there that still carry the P-64?


NRA Life Member



User avatar
lklawson
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 469
Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
Location: Huber Heights, OH
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by lklawson » April 8th, 2013, 8:20 am

DocCasualty wrote:Unless there's more to your question, any of the ComBloc 94-95gr ammo should be a very close approximation if not identical to the Polish ammo for shooting purposes. The actual ammunition it was used with initially was designed for their SMG at the time, the PM-63, and had a very hard primer. This is what led to the heavy main spring (not the original intent of the designers) and horrible DA trigger pull we associate with the stock P-64.
The heavy hammer spring also helps reduce recoil.
I would guess it would be hard to come by in the US and other than for collector's, sounds less than desirable for actual shooting.
I don't know how close it approximates the ammunition in question, but Buffalo Bore makes a top-end pressure curve "hot" 9x18 Makarov offering. Bring your wallet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."

User avatar
DocCasualty
Member
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 11:20 pm
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Ammo

Post by DocCasualty » April 9th, 2013, 10:55 am

How does the hammer spring reduce recoil?


NRA Life Member



User avatar
Weasel640
Forum supporter
Forum supporter
Posts: 668
Joined: March 13th, 2010, 9:14 pm
Location: Nothing permanent.

Re: Ammo

Post by Weasel640 » April 9th, 2013, 12:16 pm

DocCasualty wrote:How does the hammer spring reduce recoil?
Well since the slide acts on the hammer to cock it for the next shot, the hammer spring resists that action, thus applying forward force, in turn reducing recoil.

An example would be manipulating the slide with the hammer down vs back. We all know that it takes more force to pull the slide back if the hammer is down. That same force equates out to recoil resistance.
Weasel

When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force my friends is violence.

snailman153624
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 291
Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by snailman153624 » April 9th, 2013, 9:29 pm

I think the hammer actually increases felt recoil. Think about the extreme case, a hammer that didn't budge at all (equivalent to an infinitely stiff spring). Your hand would have to absorb all of it.

An ideal energy dissipation would have infinitesimally small spring stiffness, coupled with infinite travel. This would spread the energy out over an infinite amount of time. The shorter the distance the slide has to travel, and the stiffer the spring, the less time the energy has to dissipate before the slide hits the stop. This is the definition of an impulse, a.k.a. recoil.

The hammer increases the spring stiffness for at least part of the slide's travel, which means the recoil energy transfers into your hand in less time.

User avatar
lklawson
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 469
Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
Location: Huber Heights, OH
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by lklawson » April 10th, 2013, 1:52 pm

snailman153624 wrote:I think the hammer actually increases felt recoil. Think about the extreme case, a hammer that didn't budge at all (equivalent to an infinitely stiff spring). Your hand would have to absorb all of it.

An ideal energy dissipation would have infinitesimally small spring stiffness, coupled with infinite travel. This would spread the energy out over an infinite amount of time. The shorter the distance the slide has to travel, and the stiffer the spring, the less time the energy has to dissipate before the slide hits the stop. This is the definition of an impulse, a.k.a. recoil.

The hammer increases the spring stiffness for at least part of the slide's travel, which means the recoil energy transfers into your hand in less time.
Nah. Mechanical energy gets gets bled out of recoil and absorbed in compressing the spring which is then stored as potential energy (with some loss as friction and heat). It is directly analogous to rubber buttpads on shotguns and spring butt-stops on some rifles. The recoil compresses the spring/rubber. What the spring fails to absorb (for various reasons) gets passed on to the mount (shooters hand, etc.)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."

snailman153624
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 291
Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by snailman153624 » April 10th, 2013, 7:40 pm

The hammer effectively increases the recoil spring stiffness. Would you replace your soft rubber butt pad with a hard rubber one?

Everything it absorbs gets passed on (other than frictional losses), it's just spread out over a larger period of time (unless your slide locks back, such as on the last shot in the mag).

User avatar
DocCasualty
Member
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 11:20 pm
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Ammo

Post by DocCasualty » April 10th, 2013, 10:24 pm

I believe the physics involved is much more complicated than anything described here. More importantly, I think the effect of the hammer/mainspring on recoil, felt or otherwise is negligible and certainly not noticeable .

I did change out the stock mainspring for a 17# Wolfe ages ago and certainly felt no difference (i.e. - no worsening of recoil). While many have changed out the slide spring for a stiffer one (which I never did), even that has led to mixed results regarding felt recoil, with many reporting no improvement. It's a small, relatively light pistol with a stiff round. Springs just aren't going to make much of a difference when it comes to recoil, unless they were taken to such an extreme that they would be impractical.


NRA Life Member



User avatar
lklawson
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 469
Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
Location: Huber Heights, OH
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by lklawson » April 10th, 2013, 11:26 pm

snailman153624 wrote:The hammer effectively increases the recoil spring stiffness. Would you replace your soft rubber butt pad with a hard rubber one?

Everything it absorbs gets passed on (other than frictional losses), it's just spread out over a larger period of time (unless your slide locks back, such as on the last shot in the mag).
Sorry, but it really is that easy. Just like springs on your car.

But I can see that you will not be convinced.
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."

snailman153624
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 291
Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by snailman153624 » April 10th, 2013, 11:31 pm

...do you think that putting stiffer springs on your car would soften the ride?

User avatar
lklawson
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 469
Joined: February 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
Location: Huber Heights, OH
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by lklawson » April 11th, 2013, 3:28 pm

Sorry, friend. I guess I wasn't clear in my last post. I'm not going to argue with you about it. No point to it, wastes both of our time, and clutters up the board.
The Cheapskate's Guide to Gun Cleaning and Maintenance - "You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on expensive gun cleaning an maintenance products. Find out how to save money with inexpensive alternatives that work just as well."

snailman153624
Senior member
Senior member
Posts: 291
Joined: May 16th, 2012, 10:14 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by snailman153624 » April 11th, 2013, 8:07 pm

While I appreciate your cordial response, there's nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but to each his own.

User avatar
normsutton
Global moderator
Global moderator
Posts: 3560
Joined: February 26th, 2006, 6:59 am
Location: LAKELAND FL.
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by normsutton » April 12th, 2013, 1:02 pm

Kirk
thank you
norm
NORMSUTTON@AOL.COM
N.R.A. LIFE MEMBER 1976

ImageImage

Post Reply