Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

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gunneyrabbit
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by gunneyrabbit »

Here is a question that I have pondered for some time regarding all gun manufacturers.
OK, all handgun manufacturers ,save several, design one platform for all calibers. Right off hand the two that come to mind that don't fallow this formula are Kel-Tec CNC and Kahr Arms. I would include Skyy Industries in this statement but they seem to me to have borrowed technology from Kel-Tec designs, in my opinion. When I consider the beautiful design of the P-64, I wonder why the Soviet block Country's did not take the natural step foreword and convert there pistol to 9mm luger. The designs, steel frame, barrels and workmanship would certainly handle the increase in chamber and barrel pressures. Springs could be altered to handle the increased recoil. There are numerous instances in history where fixed barrel pistole's have functioned very well and have enjoyed long productivity and us by the country's military. Several that jump out at me are the ASTRA 400 series of pistole's, Astra/Mauser Broom handle 30 cal., 9mm Largo and in .45acp manufactured by the Chinese. The Japanese Nambu and the " Luger's". Bergman, Bergman Bayard and Bergman Mars are also examples of pistole's that made the transition with 1900's technology. Steyr pistole's, QED, Roth;Hahn and the Manlicher's are, I believe' further examples of fixed barrel pistole's that favored large caliber ammo.. So why did the Polish not convert to the 9mm luger cartridge for the P-64.
I will be interested in your thoughts........................ G.R.
P.S.
Feel free to correct me on the models mentioned, I am doing this from memory and at 58yrs. the memory ain't always what it should be............................... G.R.
Last edited by gunneyrabbit on March 17th, 2007, 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bzinggg
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by bzinggg »

Hey gr,

Poland went to the 9mm Parabellum in 1994, with the descendant of the P-64, the WIST94. Of course, it is not like the P-64 and is not even made in Radom, rather at Lodz, Poland. Here's the link if you're interested:

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Wist-94.htm

I guess that the 9x18 was right at the edge of what is practical for a blowback type pistol. The higher pressures of the 9mm require the recoil design (cam lug locking), evidently. Just what I read.
Last edited by bzinggg on March 15th, 2007, 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
vermonter
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by vermonter »

Don't expect to EVER get a WIST94 on the surplus market if Pelosi/Boxer/Schumer have their way and get a permanent AWB passed.
Last edited by vermonter on March 15th, 2007, 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
saands
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by saands »

The limit on caliber is really about the mass of the slide, not the frame or the springs. Look at the Highpoint pistols (9x19, 40S&W, 45acp) ... but they aren't concealable :o :o

Because the springs exert more force as the slide travels rearward, they can't be stiff enough too keep a cartridge in the chamber for the entire powder burn AND allow the slide to retract far enough to eject the case and load another round without the aid of a slide that is heavy enough that it takes a while to accelerate. That is why the delayed opening actions are so much better in this role. I don't know what the more exotic pistols you referred to are like ... I haven't taken any of them apart ... but look at the CZ-52 and it is a little marvel with the roller block action.

Saands
jbailey
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by jbailey »

Sands has it correctly, IMHO. I once had two "compact" 9mm pistols, same round capacity, steel framed, and that weighed within an ounce of eachother. One blowback, one locked breech. With any reasonable performance ammo, one was a handful to shoot (it WAS small!) and the other (the blowback) was a "painful" to shoot. Sold both and went to locked breech polymer in .40SW. Never looked back...
gunneyrabbit
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by gunneyrabbit »

Thanks for all the feed back and info., once again it all makes sense when it is laid out in such plain and simple terms. As for the ANTI-GUN NUTS, well I guess you all know what you have to do when you go to the polls at election time. YOU ALL GO TO THE POLLS ON ELECTION DAY DON'T YOU! Jeff Cooper once quoted some one and I'm sorry that I can't remember who but it goes some thing like this. The difference between a subject and a citizen is the right to own and bare arms. Just ask all the people in England, Australia and Japan where folks are unable to own hand guns and where the street crime rate soars on a daily bases. Sorry I got off the topic but this is something I have very definite opinions on. Hope I didn't step on any any ones toes
G.R.
P.S. I wonder what people like Teddy Roosevelt and Chuck Yeager would have to say about the current lot of liberal anti-gun nuts that are looming in the horizon.
G.R.
Last edited by gunneyrabbit on March 15th, 2007, 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nicksterdemus
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by nicksterdemus »

... but look at the CZ-52 and it is a little marvel with the roller block action.

Saands
Yes a sweet set-up. Unlike some of my locking lug S&W ya can just drop another barrel in if ya wish n repace rollers 4 like new performance w/ease. Well designed n easy 2 maintain......
zbysiu23
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Strength of platform - 9x18 verses 9mm luger

Post by zbysiu23 »

Hi Guys
It is not what gun can handle ..the decision of employing 9mm Makarov was political not technical, whether it made sens or not that is another question... For me it would make a perfect sens for the oposing sides in the battle to use the same ammo..when captured instead blowing it up to hell one could just use it....yet soviets never made sens and always had to be different...

When the Second World War started in September 1939 when Poland was attacked by Nazis from the West and Soviets from the East, the standard pistol load in Polish army was 9mm Luger or Parabelum everybody else who did not accept 9mm luger would use mauser or modified mauser loads like tokarevs soviet who of course had to be different..
The standard issue pistol in Polish army was the Radom VIS wz.35 9mm x 19 pistol that is untill today regarded as the best pistol of the II WW. It looked much like the 1911 yet better balanced and operated more on Browning Hi Power concept yet different with greatly minimized kickback....
The original Polish VIS pistols were masterpieces made like swiss watches, later when nazis took over the factory during their occupation of Poland the mass production of VISes begun and the quality and finish would decline from day to day...

As far as the P-64 the one or maybe two constant factors that the designers of CZAK had faced was to employ 9mm Makarov and the end product to somhow look like the soviet makarov pistol...We have to remember that the communist era in Poland is just the extension of nazi occupation Poland was attacted by Soviet forces with the start of II WW
(just another thing in1939 it was Soviet Union not Nazi Germany that was considered #1 enemy for Poland thus majority of polish defence in 39 was placed on the eastern border leaving western border of poland somhow vulnerable to soviets allied nazi germany thus it took them only slightly over a month to overrun Poland from the west...)
So being this a soviet occupation there was very little room to maneuver before being considered an enemy of the people and shot in the back of the head..
Yes Soviets had to be different from everybody... nuts bolts rules even railroad tracks had to be an inch different than the rest of the Europe ...reasons for that there is plenty it goes back to the history of the empire...
For the Poles who remained Poles during communist era the only choice was to deal with what they were left by soviets (weapon wise..) or to try diplomaticly outsmart them and push their own design that was only maybe 5 % effective.. that how CZAK was born....at other instances was to take everything what soviets sold to Poland apart polish it finish it get raid of the imperfections replace some parts and put it together..that what was heppening with mostly everything like the MIG planes etc.,

Greetings Chris
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