Wolff Springs

nbender · Post by **nbender** » March 12th, 2007, 9:32 am

bzinggg, why do you think the current Silver Bear rounds are hotter than what was " ...shot through these P-64s during their service life"? That indicates that you think the P-64 wasn't built to handle 9x18 C.I.P. pressures. I haven't found a source that says it wasn't built for standard ammo, such as the East German and Chinese military rounds that weighed 93-grains and travel over 1,000 fps.

saands · Post by **saands** » March 12th, 2007, 4:42 pm

Another issue w/recoil springs is the lighter mainsprings don't absorb as much energy as the factory heavyweights. I just want a recoil spring that won't completely collapse allowing the slide 2 collide w/frame.

Just because you spelled almost all the words completely, I'll comment

The front of the slide (just ahead of the trigger guard) DOES collide with the frame. Actually, it collides in normal use with the trigger guard which in turn collides with the frame. It seems to be designed that way ... as is the Mak and Walther PP series ... as I would assume many other blowback designs are as well. That heavier recoil springs slow that collision down a bit is exactly why they DO help with perceived recoil.

There is so little room between the travel required for reliable ejection and that collision that I wouldn't want to spring a P64 so heavily that it didn't collide ... it might work for one particular load, but it probably wouldn't work with anything lighter.

Saands

bzinggg · Post by **bzinggg** » March 12th, 2007, 4:43 pm

Just whatever you think, nbender. You be the expert. Fine with me. I explained in my former post that the "hot" ammo I was referring to was the 115gr Silver Bear, and I was including it in the modern ammo that is hotter than the stuff they used in Polish P-64s in the 60s and 70s. Therefore, I'm encouraged about the production of the stronger recoil springs and that they might allow me to use the 115gr without damaging my P-64s. CIP pressures of 9x18 ammo varies. I certainly believe that something under a 100 grains at 950 to 1000 fps is not as hot as the 115gr at 1070.

If this is all so important to you, why don't you document what the Polish police and military actually used in their service pistols during the P-64 era with a little hard research and better luck than most have had.

Add edit: I'm going to guess that the Volmantel available from AIM a few months ago from Poland is representative of the ammunition manufactured for use in the P-64 in the '60s and 70s.
I don't have any documentation, though. The P-64 certainly was built for some kind of 9x18 ammo, wasn't it? In the manual, the recommended weight of projectile was 71 grains, if I'm not mistaken. Admittedly, some have come to the conclusion that the entry was in error. They have no documentation either.

nbender · Post by **nbender** » March 12th, 2007, 7:35 pm

"I don't think the ammo shot through these P-64s during their service life was as hot, even as the latest like Silver Bear (Barnaul) 95gr".

You didn't seem to be referring only to the 115-grain?

Sorry to so rattle your cage bzinggg, from what you wrote I was hoping you had some other info. I won't respond about people being the expert, that's a bit rude, and you're a bit too sensitive for a public back-and-forth, so to close and come to agreement I'll stand by your statement:

"The P-64 certainly was built for some kind of 9x18 ammo, wasn't it?"

gunneyrabbit · Post by **gunneyrabbit** » March 12th, 2007, 11:22 pm

OK you guys,
How does the Silver Bear compare to Fiocci ammunition for feet per second and muzzle energy? This is a cartridge that I shoot regularly. Am I doing harm to the pistole using faster heavier loads?......................... G.R.

bzinggg · Post by **bzinggg** » March 12th, 2007, 11:28 pm

Scroll down to the bottom of this page, if you haven't been there before:

http://makarov.com/tech.html

I don't think the Fiocci 95gr at 1040 would be too much. Can't prove it, just think it. fwiw

bZ

Add edit: I never have seen a ballistics report on the Barnaul Silver Bear that is being manufactured now. I'll go over to their site and look around.

nbender · Post by **nbender** » March 12th, 2007, 11:35 pm

bzinggg referred to the tests I posted at Makarov.com. I don't think they include the latest Silver Bear.

Hello GR;

I guess you're talking about the Fiocchi JHP, because their HP hasn't been available for 5 or 6 years. I think they are both (Fiocchi and Silver Bear) built to C.I.P. standards, which means I think they can be shot without problem in the P-64. I ran both through a chronograph:

Fiocchi 95-gr FMJ (20 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: Fiocchi Munizioni S.P.A., Lecco, Italy
Headstamp: G.F.L. 9 MAKAROV
Cartridge Case: Brass case, boxer primed, non-corrosive primer
Bullet: 94.5-gr (1 measured), copper (brass?)-coated, with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Case and bullet are non-magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.970 – 0.975
Avg: 0.972

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 976 – 1077
Avg: 1040
ES: 101
SD: 27

The current Silver Bear is a bit slower:

Silver Bear (Barnaul) 94-gr FMJ (20 rounds tested)

In 2006 the Russian Barnaul plant started manufacturing Silver Bear. Older Silver Bear cartridges were produced by the Russian LVE plant.

Manufacturer: CJSC Barnaul Cartridge Plant, Barnaul, Russia
Headstamp: "9mm Mak" with small "JSC" (Russian Cartridge Plants Association) trademark
Cartridge Case: Zinc plated steel, Berdan primed, non-corrosive primer
Bullet: 94.3-grains (2 weighed the same), steel-jacketed, copper-coated, with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.968 – 0.978
Avg: 0.974

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 930 – 1007
Avg: 969
ES: 77
SD: 20

bzinggg · Post by **bzinggg** » March 12th, 2007, 11:42 pm

;DWell, lookie! I don't have to. Our resident ballistics expert has got that for you. And we all appreciate it!

;D

nbender · Post by **nbender** » March 12th, 2007, 11:59 pm

bzinggg, I think you've made some conributions in the past. I hope things get better for you.

I've posted 9x18 chronograph results for years. For some reason, the information - and it's just data, nothing else - infuriates a small group. Just look at the results and chalk it up, they aren't meant to offend anyone.

Gr, it's just my opinion that these rounds will not harm your P-64 more than others.

bzinggg · Post by **bzinggg** » March 13th, 2007, 12:32 am

Take it easy on the psychoanalysis, light bulb. ;D

Sometimes it's all in the way you read something...

That's my final answer.

nicksterdemus · Post by **nicksterdemus** » March 13th, 2007, 6:34 am

because you spelled almost all the words completely

Why thank ya, thank ya very much. 4 a ridgerunnin' billhilly that's quite the compliment. My 1006 will drop 361'lb FBI loads @ my feet. If it gets a little dirty or doesn't have a fresh oil change or gets cold outside it tends 2 jam on brass occasionally. Same recoil spring will handle 700'lb. Of course it's not a blow-back but it's smooth shootin' @ "40 lite" w/hardly any muzzle rise n no flash. Probably weighs 2 n 1/2x the 64.
I'd have no prob shootin the same load but 4 arguments sake I'll bow 2 your wisdom n rephrase that I'd like a recoil spring that would caressingly offer the slide a fleeting kiss 2 the frame of such short duration as 2 leave wanton n wanting..................

gunneyrabbit · Post by **gunneyrabbit** » March 13th, 2007, 3:24 pm

On a happier note,
I just yesterday afternoon sent off a pair of postal money orders to D. Larson to purchase what is reputed to be a couple of CREAM PUFF P-64 pistole's. My trigger finger is Just A Twitch-en to pick up the box these two little beauties are going to arrive in.
My wife tells me that my gun buying is done for a while. "Lucky Me", now I can spend some of my hard earned cash for frivolous things like may be a new set of those fancy checkered Red stained walnut grips and possibly a shiny new two tone paint jobs from FORDS, you know ; the Stainless Steel Frame with the Straw Blue Slide. I tell you my wife is getting pretty upset that I want to spend more time with my new Polish Princess than I do with her, go figure................... G.R.

gunneyrabbit · Post by **gunneyrabbit** » March 13th, 2007, 3:53 pm

Oh, I have one other question,
Is the Silver Bear HP ammunition considered a defensive round? It is advertised as having a magnetic case and a copper coated magnetic shell around the bullet. I'm not really familiar with any of these European cartridges and need a little help with what is what. Is the steel as mailable as the copper jacket, will the round function like a copper jacketed slug................... G.R.

Post by **normsutton** » March 13th, 2007, 4:25 pm

G.R.
I guess I old fashion I don't like shooting steel slugs though my barrels or using steel cases that I can't reload

NORM

nbender · Post by **nbender** » March 13th, 2007, 5:04 pm

GR - I get in enough trouble just posting chronograph results; I've learned never to even start to present advise on what a defensive round is. I shot a wide variety of 9x18 into soaked newspapers once but that was before this latest incarnation of Silver Bear. As far as I know, nobody has tested it yet for penetrating properties.

The Russians have always prided themselves on their soft steel cases and bullet casings. Much has been written on whether these cases can harm barrels or ejectors. Their pistols were designed to use these materials; I will go out on a limb and say they don't do harm, but now I'll duck.

- Lightbulb

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