Wolff Springs

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gunneyrabbit
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Post by gunneyrabbit » March 11th, 2007, 6:46 pm

I was just at the Wolff Springs web site and saw that they now have recoil springs for sale for the P-64. :D Now here is my question, Why would you want to replace the 18lb. factory weight spring with a 20lb. or 22lb. spring. This is something I have never done before and I'm curious as to what the affect would be and what are the benefits? ....................................... G.R.
Last edited by gunneyrabbit on March 11th, 2007, 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by steve98664 » March 11th, 2007, 7:06 pm

GR, I have my springs on the way. I have the 16# walther spring now, so I ordered the cal kit for that. I read that the 18-20 hammer spring cal kit springs are not the same as the wather ones of the same ratings. I was going to wait and see, but figured I'd just get the 3 in one kit with a new recoil to see how it does. I picked up both sizes in the recoil too.....

I read a post a short time back that somebody had a firing pin problem from dry firing, so I'm gonna look for some snap caps! I should've gotten those a long time ago anyhow.

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Post by bzinggg » March 11th, 2007, 7:38 pm

Hey gunny,

the good ammo available now-a-days is running a little hotter (higher pressures) and the consensus is that a little heavier recoil spring will operate and protect the pistol better.

Add edit: Some think that a heavier recoil spring might reduce felt recoil. I don't agree with this on the basic physical principal that the weight of the pistol is the critical factor in felt recoil.

I do think accuracy will improve and that ejection of the cases will be at a shorter, more uniform distance.

To qualify a relevant perspective, I would say that I believe the grip should be two-handed, if possible, and tight with a straight wrist and forearm, and the trigger finger lightly applied for best accuracy and recoil management. It's a knack one needs to develop. The shooter who has the drive to excercise and improve grip and forearm strength will greatly benefit from doing so.
Last edited by bzinggg on March 11th, 2007, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by gunneyrabbit » March 11th, 2007, 8:02 pm

bzinggg,
The hotter ammo scenario makes sense but I'm not sure that I fallow the improved accuracy and shorter cartridge ejection distance, always willing to learn something new, could you please elaborate?
Thanks................ G.R.
Last edited by gunneyrabbit on March 11th, 2007, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bzinggg » March 11th, 2007, 8:17 pm

You bet. There's greater resistance at ignition and shortly thereafter, creating a better, more efficient energy transfer to the projectile, causing it to leave the barrel at a higher speed and therefore, earlier. This means less movement of the trajectory in relation to the point of aim, producing better accuracy. Weak recoil springs are usually the culprit when the pistol starts throwing the cases a half a mile. They allow the slide to move rearward at too great a speed, hence, forceful ejection.

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Post by steve98664 » March 11th, 2007, 8:29 pm

I will take the exercise comment on board!

Once I get the Wolff springs in I will let you know if the felt recoil changes. I believe that stronger springs reduce recoil, but in practice, my Bulgarian Mak has not decreased as much as I thought and I recently went from a 19# to a 21#. You may have a point here.

I have always believed the general rule told to me that 'the largest recoil spring allowing proper ejection is best'. However, the effect I never considered until recently is what happens to your grip on the pistol and the pistol frame when that super strong spring snaps the slide back into place? For an aluminum frame pistol it can be just as damaging as a weak recoil spring, I'm told. I don't think you can hurt a P64 this way.

Any other input on this would be great!

I have noted that hi point pistols get the job done with a heavier slide......

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Post by saands » March 11th, 2007, 9:19 pm

I agree that weight of the pistol is the key factor in overall recoil. That being said, I have to disagree that it is the key factor in PERCEIVED recoil. After shooting 50 rounds through the P64, I'm usually done with it for a session ... I can shoot 100 rounds of full house 10mm or 357 and be just about warmed up ... I think that the difference is that the P64's slide is still zipping backwards at a pretty good clip when it hits the fame and that impulse slaps the web of your hand in a rather uncomfortable way. I am pretty certain that the stiffer recoil springs will cause the slide to impact the frame at a lower velocity and thereby spread the total recoil out over a longer period of time and sting less. That, at least, is how I see it.

Hope this helps,
Saands

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Post by saands » March 11th, 2007, 9:34 pm

Well ... I agree that weak springs usually are the culprit when cases start going into low orbit, but since the bullet only stays in the barrel for .00035 seconds anyway, I have a hard time seeing that a stiffer spring will make much difference in the dwell time of the bullet in the barrel. Since the spring is just barely compressed when the slide is closed, the difference in "resistance at ignition and shortly thereafter"is almost zero. The early part of the slide movement is driven by slide weight, it is the end of slide movement that is promarily affected by the stiffness of the spring (energy absorbed goes up with the square of the distance traveled ... so most of it happens at the end). Now ... with all of that ... I'm betting that my accuracy will improve because I won't be anticipating the sting that comes with every shot :)

Just my $0.02 .... and I'm always open to an alternative view.

Saands

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Post by bzinggg » March 11th, 2007, 9:48 pm

;DI'm stickin' to my guns! I think a stouter recoil spring makes for a better launch in a blowback pistol, avoiding sluggish operation and wandering groups.

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Post by gunneyrabbit » March 11th, 2007, 10:08 pm

Bzinggg,
Thanks for the heads up regarding the increased power recoil springs and accuracy, it all makes sense after reading your explanation. Is there any down side to ordering heavier recoil springs that you are aware of.

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Post by nbender » March 11th, 2007, 10:12 pm

bzinggg, I'm wondering about your statement: "the good ammo available now-a-days is running a little hotter (higher pressures)".

I see the currently available 9x18 as dumbed down from the old days when such rounds as Silver and Brown Bear 115-grain and PS Grand were available. All the old Barnaul and RAM shot faster than the current brands. The Wolf 109- and 120-grain rounds were brutal.

Makarov.com has always said that a stiffer recoil spring will reduce felt recoil and shorten cartridge ejection distance. I did an experiment using a Makarov with 17#, 19#, and 21# recoil springs. I measured the distance the cartridge was thrown using each, and could find no real difference between the springs. I also couldn't really tell a difference in felt recoil. I agree it's the pistol design and weight that affects the recoil much more than the spring can compensate for.

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Post by bzinggg » March 11th, 2007, 11:17 pm

bzinggg, I'm wondering about your statement: "the good ammo available now-a-days is running a little hotter (higher pressures)".

I see the currently available 9x18 as dumbed down from the old days when such rounds as Silver and Brown Bear 115-grain and PS Grand were available. All the old Barnaul and RAM shot faster than the current brands. The Wolf 109- and 120-grain rounds were brutal.

Makarov.com has always said that a stiffer recoil spring will reduce felt recoil and shorten cartridge ejection distance. I did an experiment using a Makarov with 17#, 19#, and 21# recoil springs. I measured the distance the cartridge was thrown using each, and could find no real difference between the springs. I also couldn't really tell a difference in felt recoil. I agree it's the pistol design and weight that affects the recoil much more than the spring can compensate for.
OK, you're right about the very latest and most available 9x18 is not hotter. I was referring to the Silver Bear 115 grain nickle-cased as the "good" stuff that's still well represented in my personal supply, along with those others that you mention. don't really consider 2002 as the "old days". That's when my Silver Bear 115gr nickle case was manufactured.

Image
The good stuff!

I've got good springs in mine, now, evidently, but I want to carry this round regularly and I will buy some heavier springs and find out how it shoots for certain, if using one might add to the life of my little buddies and keep them damage free with the 115gr.
Last edited by bzinggg on March 12th, 2007, 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bzinggg » March 11th, 2007, 11:26 pm

I don't think the ammo shot through these P-64s during their service life was as hot, even as the latest like Silver Bear (Barnaul) 95gr., but others may quote to correct me. I never use or have used Wolf 9x18.

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Post by vermonter » March 12th, 2007, 12:20 am

I think saands has the best handle on the spring issue. Here is his earlier post. I would wait for his report before making a final decision on the springs:

Vermonter:

I just got your PM, but I'll reply here just in case it is of value to the rest.

I'm not sure WHERE in the stroke Wolff measures their spring force. Technically springs have a rate (lbs per inch), and you can define how much energy they store when compressed (ft-lbs), but to boil it all down to a force (lbs) you have to define how much they are compressed. Anyway, by my calculations, the HK spring mod stored 20% more energy in use than a factory spring and has about 15% more force than factory when the slide was fully retracted. The HK spring helped tame the recoil, but the P64 still ejects cases with complete authority ... we aren't talking a nice neat stack of empties 3-6 feet away ... even with the upgrade!

I think that the 22 lb recoil spring will be great

Again ... I don't know where they are measuring the P64 mainsprings and how those compare to the PP spring in terms of rating ... is a 19#PP equivalent to a 20#P64? Is it the other way around? I do know that we compress the PP springs a little more than the P64 springs ... so it is entirely possible (probable?) that the numbers will NOT agree. I think that this is actually one case where, at least until we try the real ones, there is actually more data out there on the unauthorized parts than there is on the real ones. If the numbers of these springs DO agree with the PP numbers, then the 22/20 combo sounds like a winner. I'll be using the 22/19 ... but I'll likely buy a pack of mainsprings just to report on them to the rest of the group here and once I try the real ones, I may stick with them.

Saands
Last edited by vermonter on March 12th, 2007, 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by nicksterdemus » March 12th, 2007, 6:54 am

Another issue w/recoil springs is the lighter mainsprings don't absorb as much energy as the factory heavyweights. I just want a recoil spring that won't completely collapse allowing the slide 2 collide w/frame.
Last edited by nicksterdemus on March 12th, 2007, 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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