Small frame inaccurate shooters

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RobsTV
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Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by RobsTV »

To be honest, the P-64 is the most inaccurate gun I have owned or shot, until last weekend. Nothing against the P-64, it is getting better than 4" groups at 10 yards, but the other guns with longer barrels, and/or smaller calibers of course did better. Tough to use at 25 yards, but more than half the time it will hit an 8" target (if I remember correctly, since don't usually shoot the P-64 at 25 yards as the wife can't hit squat at that distance).

The wife sort of claimed the P-64 after shooting it, and I want it back. Picked up a Ruger 22/45 MKII, and she had a blast with it. But she still likes the "real gun feel" of the P-64. So thinking something along the lines of a pocket 380acp for her. Then went to friends house and let her shoot their Kel-Tec 32. Never gonna happen. For her at 10 yards, no hits on 8" target. 6 yards, no hits. 6 feet, no hits. WTF? I then tried it, and at around 10 "feet", 2 out of 6 hit the target. My friends wife that claims it as hers, had same no hits results at around 6' and hates the Kel-Tec.

Reading reviews and it seems most of the pocket pistols like LCP and Bodyguard are bad target shooters. I didn't think it could be this bad though. Spoiled I guess by the P-64 and other shooters.

New plan is to maybe just get another P-64. Do any of the modern pocket pistols shoot as good as a P-64, (without spending a fortune, and larger than a .25). Lighter and smaller would be nice, but to give up all the accuracy is not worth it to me. I do keep the P-64 in a Uncle Mikes pocket holster, and works good enough for CCW while wearing shorts. Haven't tried any IWB but plan on it soon.

On a side note, the P-64 is actually a tad smaller than my CZ-27 7.65 (32acp) and shoots almost as accurately. But no comparison. The P-64 is a much better pistol than the CZ-27.
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by normsutton »

RobsTV

have you tried the
BerettaTomcat 32acp

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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by RobsTV »

No Norm, I have not even thought of that one.
Will check it out.
Was really hoping for something around the power of the 9x18, which would be near a 380 acp.

I guess to simplify the accuracy standard I am looking for is the ability to usually hit an 8" target at 25 yards around 1/2 the time. If it can do that, it should be fine at 10 yards or closer. Then of course be smaller and lighter than the P-64. Recoil not an issue, and if lighter it will probably be worse.

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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by normsutton »

RobsTV

Beretta also makes a 21 A, its in 22 long rifle,

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you can get a FEG R61 its lighter than the P-64 shoots a 9x18 almost the same size,
I don't like the 380,
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

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normsutton wrote:
you can get a FEG R61 its lighter than the P-64 shoots a 9x18 almost the same size,
I don't like the 380,
NORM

That looks promising. A lighter P-64 type.

You don't like the FEG R61 380, or 380's in general?

There is a FEG R61 380 offered near me at what looks like a reasonable price.

The original 380 reference was more for a modern equivalent of the 9x18.
I already reload for the 9x18 so of course that would be my preferred choice.
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by normsutton »

RobsTV

there is also
FEG smc 9x18 same size as the R-61 it also has the alloy frame



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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by DoubleTap »

I (and a lot of the other posters here, I suspect) have generally found the P64s to be surprisingly accurate, given their size. 4" at 10 yards sounds like a larger than average group, at least based upon my experiences with the three that I own. Having said that however, it's a perfectly acceptable sized group for a pocket pistol. My daily carry (for summertime wear anyway) pistol is a Kel-Tec P3AT, and that sounds about typical of what it might do. As for your friend's Kel-Tec, I'd tell them to send it back. Kel-Tec is pretty good about standing behind their products. :D
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

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Don't get me wrong. The P-64 is very accurate. Better than 4" groups at 10 yards. 3" is probably the norm with occasionally better than that. Of course not as accurate as 4.5"+ handgun barrels though, which I also own. So compared to other guns I own, it is not as accurate. With another of my projects, I am trying to get one ragged hole at 100 yards with S&W 500 revolver. The title is not about an inaccurate P-64, but for something to replace the P-64 that the wife can shoot close to P-64 accuracy.

I would like something modern, just as accurate (or better) than the P-64 but smaller and lighter, and based on owners reviews in sites devoted to them, not looking very good.

googling Kel-Tec 32 poor accuracy and it seems common and is what it is. Theme seems to be, it is not made for accuracy, but for CC at close distances. Belly guns made for 5 to 10 feet. Tips include Shoot at 5 yards from a rest and try to hit center mass? No thanks. The P-64 can do that standing at 25 yards. Yes, I know practice would make the 32 better, and those that stay with it and practice a lot it can get groups of 5" at 5 yards that they consider acceptable. I just thought other modern guns would be in the same ballpark as the P-64, and perhaps a little less accurate. With small calibers, shot placement will get best results. Thought the 32 being smaller caliber than the 380 would do better than a 380 with same length barrel. If this is normal, no sense in trying the Kel-Tec 380 as it is not in the ballpark of what I was hoping to find.

This is not a rant on Kel-Tec, just that is what I tested. Owners are saying similar things about S&W Bodyguard and Ruger LCP. Close range Belly guns, not designed for target shooting. In other words "Small Frame Inaccurate Shooters".
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by lklawson »

"About" the same size as the P64? Hmmm... I'm not thinking of anything off the top. I've heard that the Taurus 709 Slim has a nice trigger. It's a tad larger than the PF9 but I also think it's a tad larger than the P64 too. I'll see if I can dig up some stats. The 709 Slim would have the advantage of running 9mm Para so it'd be cheaper to shoot.

As for the P32's accuracy... Hmmm... I have a 1st Gen. that (just for giggles) I ran a course of fire on the NRA Pistol Qualification on the "Sharpshooter" course. That runs at 30' and my P32 was able to turn in passing scores. No promises about anyone else's though. :)

I'll also throw in another +1 for the PA63 as being a nice gun. It was what my PF9 replaced. It has a reputation for a rough and heavy trigger though. My example is heavy but not horribly rough. The grip is longer than that of the P64 so that will affect pocket-ability. The frame and the slide are about the same width, however. The aluminum frame doesn't make it as friendly to recoil though. But if you don't mind the recoil on the P64 then the PA63 won't bother you either. Another note on the Al. frame: don't use hot loads and/or heavy bullets. Stick with the standard pressure loads and the 95 gr. bullets. I've come across too many stories of people with cracked frames who attributed it to a diet too rich in fp/e. ;)

I'm off to see if I can wrangle some stats.

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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by lklawson »

Here's what I was able to dredge off the 'net on the 709 Slim:
Magazine capacity: 7 rounds
Trigger mechanism: SA/DA
Trigger pull: Approximately 9 lbs. DA; approximately 5 lbs. SA
Sights: Blade front, rear adjustable for windage and elevation; three white dots
Barrel Length: 3.2"
Length: 6.24"
Width: 1"
Height: 4.56"
Weight: 19 oz.

Here's the general stats on the P64 and the PF9.

P64:
Caliber: 9 mm Makarov
Capacity: 6+1
Length: 160 mm (6.3")
Height: 117 mm (4.6")
Width: 27 mm (1.06")
Barrel length: 84.6 mm (3.33")
Weight (empty): 620 g (21.9 oz)
Hammer Spring: 24 lbs [ref: Wolff Gunsprings]

PF9:
Caliber: 9 mm Luger
Weight unloaded: 12.7 oz.
Length: 5.85" (149 mm)
Height: 4.3" (109 mm)
Width: 0.88" (22 mm)
Barrel Length: 3.1" (79 mm)
Capacity: 7 + 1
Trigger Pull: 5 lbs

So, just in raw numbers, it looks like the Taurus 709 slim is pretty close (if not a tad less here and there) to the P64 so I'm guessing that it should be just as pocket-able as the P64

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Kirk
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by juniustaylor »

I think I got lucky but this was the best 3-shot group I ever got from my P-64. This was 25 yards, using a sandbag as a rest. Not tooting my horn, but those squares are 1" and if you see how tight the shots are, they would fit in one square. And they were 3 consecutive shots.
Image

:) I don't always get this kind of consistency though, so it may have just been luck this time.
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by RobsTV »

I'll admit that I don't shoot the P-64 much anymore, since the wife took it over, and I usually bring a half dozen other guns to the range that keep me busy. No one in our party ever shoots the P-64 from a bench, always free standing two handed. Heck, now it looks like if half the shots hit an 8" target at 25 yards, that is terrible for a P-64. 3" groups at 10 yards is unusually poor for a P-64 and probably shooter or ammo. But those groups I mentioned are what anyone that picks up the P-64 can get within a couple mags. Yet other smaller "modern" guns don't even come close to approaching that. And that is what this thread is really about. The other guns coming close enough to P-64 accuracy.

So is there anything even remotely in the same ballpark as the P-64, yet modern round, lighter and smaller? Even 5" groups at 10 yards (30 feet) as being normal, and something obtainable after a few mags free standing?

As first post mentioned, seems like my best bet is to just get another P-64, or one of the FEG 9x18's mentioned for something a little lighter.
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by normsutton »

RobsTV

I don't think there is anything better new or old , most of the modern guns are plastic to make them light ,and when they make them that small and light they just aren't that accurate , 7 yards is where most gun fights are , also most people don't want to be shot with anything

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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by RobsTV »

lklawson wrote:
PF9:
Caliber: 9 mm Luger
Weight unloaded: 12.7 oz.
Length: 5.85" (149 mm)
Height: 4.3" (109 mm)
Width: 0.88" (22 mm)
Barrel Length: 3.1" (79 mm)
Capacity: 7 + 1
Trigger Pull: 5 lbs

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That looks very interesting.
First review I saw had it in the ballpark for accuracy of what I was expecting.
If it will get 5" groups at 10 yards from most shooters after a few mags, then bingo (maybe).

Doing more reading..
Thanks
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Re: Small frame inaccurate shooters

Post by RobsTV »

normsutton wrote:RobsTV

I don't think there is anything better new or old , most of the modern guns are plastic to make them light ,and when they make them that small and light they just aren't that accurate , 7 yards is where most gun fights are , also most people don't want to be shot with anything

NORM
Luckily, the P-64 isn't going anywhere except out of the wife's hands and back into mine.

Her replacement will be an accurate "future CC". Doesn't need to be as accurate as a P-64, but in the ballpark.

The range we belong to, Hernando Sportsman's Club, has 10 yards as shortest distance, with 200 yards furthest.

The wife, same as most shooters I imagine, needs to see shooting results that make her happy and confident. The P-64 does that for her. The Kel-Tec 32 was her nightmare. She must enjoy shooting the new gun, and that enjoyment comes in a large part by how accurate it is at 10 yards.

Worse comes to worse, and another P-64 is not a bad plan.
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