+P Ammo

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mark076
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+P Ammo

Post by mark076 »

Has anyone used the Hungarian MFS +P 9x18 ammo in their P-64, the ammo can be purchased at SOG. Can the P-64 take a steady diet of +P ammo?
devlinfaust
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Post by devlinfaust »

If this is what I think it is, I bought a few boxes of it from the Sportsman's Guide. Their ratings had it at about 202 foot pounds of energy, or something like that. I believe that the ratings on Brown Bear and others are much higher. While the box calls it plus P, it didn't seem to really have the plus P power. I haven't shot any of this stuff yet.

Anyone else used it?
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Post by nbender »

vermonter
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Post by vermonter »

If you read that post it states that the Makarov Guides rates the Makarov as able to withstand pressure between 17,000 and 19,000 PSI. The Makarov is not the same as the P-64. I would only shoot ammo within the design parameters of the pistol. Since there is no published info readily available for the P-64, I would only shoot 93-95 Grain Standard Pressure Ammo in my P-64. I don't buy the 71 Grain thing, but I am sure it was not rated for heavier bullets and higher pressure. I don't feel under gunned with 95 Gr standard ammo. Is it worth "pushing the envelope" to risk damaging your wonderful little 64? Use it in your Bulgie Mak with 19 Lb Wolff springs!
Last edited by vermonter on February 14th, 2007, 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nbender
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Post by nbender »

If you read that post, it states that the Makarov pistol was actually designed to withstand pressure between 17,000 and 24,000 psi. But the main information presented in that post is that the MFS ammunition is not over pressured. The C.I.P. pressure maximum for the 9x18 cartridge is 23,000 psi. The MFS "+P" cartridge develops a maximum of 19,334 psi, and the bullet weighs 93-grains. In which parameter is this ammunition "pushing the envelope", other than over-amping their marketing approach?
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Post by vermonter »

I am not referring to the Makarov when I mentioned "pushing the envelope", since it is rated as you stated. I am concerned with damage to P-64's IE: "pushing the envelope" of the P-64's design parameters which are still an unknown. Looking at the lack of slide mass (when compared with the PM) and shorter (and older) recoil spring of the P-64 I would be concerned with +P and 115 Gr ammo. Just my humble opinion. perhaps a nice Wolff 22LB would help?
Last edited by vermonter on February 14th, 2007, 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nbender
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Post by nbender »

Ok, but I think you're replying to or offering something different than what Mark076 asked and it's hard to respond to you. He wanted to know about the MFS "+P" ammunition.

This MFS cartridge is not over-pressured and does not require special handling.

On another subject, if there is a 9x18 cartridge that is over-pressured (over the C.I.P. pressure limits for 9x18), then that should not be fired in a P-64. And as a personal preference I also don't use the heavier (over 95-grain) bullets in the P-64.
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Post by vermonter »

nbender... Understood, and I agree with you. Although I am no expert on the P-64 I really like the little gem. I'm always on the lookout for owners to preserve their P-64's. Spare parts are hard to find - non-existant.
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Post by nicksterdemus »

Take a look @ the lowly 158gn LRN in 38spl 4 some non +p rated ammo...
http://www.sb-usa.com/pistol_ammo_page.htm
Last edited by nicksterdemus on February 16th, 2007, 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
kempin
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Post by kempin »

+1 with vermonter.

A p-64 is not designed for ammo that hot. If you want more power, get a more powerful pistol.

Of course, a person is free to do whatever they want with their own property and it's none of my business. Just sharing my opinion. I doubt that it is a safety issue. I am convinced, though, that hot ammo would affect the longevity of the pistol.

-Kempin
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Post by nbender »

"A p-64 is not designed for ammo that hot. " What's driving me kind of batty on this thread is trying to find out which ammo you're talking about that is "that hot".
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Post by normsutton »

NBENDER

I think there still talking about the MFS +P 9x18 ammo



NORM
Last edited by normsutton on February 17th, 2007, 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bzinggg
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Post by bzinggg »

One of the other common references when saying "hot ammo" is the Silver Bear Nickle Plated cartridge from LVE in Russia that pushes a 115 grain FMJ or HP at over a thousand fps.

From Makarov.com:

Silver Bear 115-gr FMJ (20 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: LVE (Low Voltage Equipment Plant), Novosibirsk, Russia
Headstamp: LVE 01 9X18MAK
Cartridge Case: Nickel-plated steel, berdan primed, non-corrosive
Bullet: 116.5-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated with flat copper base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.960 – 0.972
Avg: 0.966

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 992 – 1037
Avg: 1011
ES: 45
SD: 12

Edit added: Go to this page and scroll down more than halfway to see the variations they have tested:

http://www.makarov.com/tech.html
Last edited by bzinggg on February 18th, 2007, 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
nbender
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Post by nbender »

I'm real familiar with the person who did those tests posted on Makarov.com.

SB started out with a 12-grain JHP that was a pretty infamous round (it's not been made for over 5 years). The hollow point opening varied widely - real poor QA - the cartridge wouldn't even load into a lot of magazines, and it was notorious for jamming in Makarovs. So Silver Bear came out with a "115-grain", which actually weighed the same as the 120-grain (about 117-grains actual) but the QA was better. It still had reported feeding problems, but it was always my experience that you could get any Makarov to feed it with either a little work on the feed ramp or by just shooting a bunch of it through the pistol until it fed Ok. The 115-grain hasn't been imported for some 2 years. I think that the heavier bullets are probably not suitable for the P-64; it just doesn't have the mass of the Makarov.

But back to the MFS - I've tried to post that this bullet is not "+P" or "hot"; pressure data and bullet weight confirms this and in fact it feels like normal ammo when you fire it but responses keep coming in that you shouldn't fire ammo "this hot". If there is some other info I've missed indicating that this ammo should be considered "hot" I'd like to know it.
Last edited by nbender on February 18th, 2007, 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
mark076
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Post by mark076 »

nbender, your post over at gunboards.com says the 19,334psi was the highest of the 30 tested, where did the average fall or were all the others fight around the 19,000psi?

I too was not sure what ammo was hot. From the info that was on this web site I did not see that MFS +P was "hot". The question came about because the range I go to will not let you use steel bullets and this is the only ammo that I have seen lately that is brass. I am not looking for something more powerful or to damage my P-64, just something to use at the range.
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