Glad that you weren't injured, save your pride. Thanks for the PSA.
I do not carry with a round in the chamber. I'd rather lose a fraction of a second than to have an AD. If I think I'm going to need a "fast shot" I'll carry a snub nosed revolver.
Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigger!
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
There is the rub.
No one can ever know when they will need a "fast shot".
No one can ever know when they will need a "fast shot".
Laugh Hard and Often.
Gary
Gary
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surfzombie
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Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
I the words or Maxwell smart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwrodxghrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwrodxghrw
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
When I have carried other pistols the same type and size as the p-64, I always kept the weapon chambered but decocked with the safety off. I still plan on purchasing a p-64 soon (hopefully tomorrow!) and am glad to have stumbled on this thread. Safety on for me.
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
I've got to vote with PeeWee and Roger58 on this one. I just got my P64 Last Friday and am waiting for the UPS-man to bring me some 9x18s. In the mean time this post got my attention in a pretty big way. So I decided to check it out. And my P64 (stamped 1973 on the RH side) won't let the hammer strike the firing pin unless the trigger is back. It could be some guns do and some guns don't, but mine definitely "don't." It could also be that the gun can easily be mis-assembled to allow this to happen. Again, I'm a complete newbee to the P64.
Here's how I checked mine (give this a try.)
With the gun unloaded....
safety off, cock the hammer and pull the trigger and then keep the trigger pulled back. (use your free thumb to catch and drop the hammer gently) Now gently push the hammer forward toward the firing pin. On my gun I feel the hammer move forward about 1mm until it meets the firing pin and you feel resistance. Then little more pressure on the hammer and it should move forward some more (like 2mm) and this is the firing pin moving forward.
Let go of the trigger, then let off the hammer slowly and you should hear two clicks as the hammer moves away from the firing pin. Then, with the trigger released, you will find that you can not push the hammer forward so far as to strike the firing pin.
Even more fun, point the pistol straight up, then insert the pointed little pin end of your cleaning tool down the barrel and "fenagle" it into the firing pin hole in the slide face. Now do the same trick as above, cock the pistol, pull the trigger while dropping the hammer ever-so-gently with your free thumb, then push the hammer as before. You should see the cleaning tool (or whatever else you "poked" down in there) move indicating contact between the hammer and firing pin. But release the trigger and the hammer should be blocked.
Does anybody have any info on this?
Here's how I checked mine (give this a try.)
With the gun unloaded....
safety off, cock the hammer and pull the trigger and then keep the trigger pulled back. (use your free thumb to catch and drop the hammer gently) Now gently push the hammer forward toward the firing pin. On my gun I feel the hammer move forward about 1mm until it meets the firing pin and you feel resistance. Then little more pressure on the hammer and it should move forward some more (like 2mm) and this is the firing pin moving forward.
Let go of the trigger, then let off the hammer slowly and you should hear two clicks as the hammer moves away from the firing pin. Then, with the trigger released, you will find that you can not push the hammer forward so far as to strike the firing pin.
Even more fun, point the pistol straight up, then insert the pointed little pin end of your cleaning tool down the barrel and "fenagle" it into the firing pin hole in the slide face. Now do the same trick as above, cock the pistol, pull the trigger while dropping the hammer ever-so-gently with your free thumb, then push the hammer as before. You should see the cleaning tool (or whatever else you "poked" down in there) move indicating contact between the hammer and firing pin. But release the trigger and the hammer should be blocked.
Does anybody have any info on this?
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hookedonsks
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Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
I respectfully submit that the only sure way to determine if your particular p-64 will discharge without the trigger being pulled is to utilize either live ammunition or primed cases (i.e. with projectile and propellent removed) and conduct a test similar to the one I noted above. Each of my four p-64's will discharge without touching the trigger if the safety is off and the hammer is retracted 1/2 to 3/4 of its backward travel and released.
I speculate that the hammer spring and type of ammunition might make a difference. The reason I say this is because at one time I installed a "lighter" Wolff spring in one of my P-64's to give an easier DA trigger pull. I then discovered that certain ammunition did not reliably discharge in DA operation while other ammunition had no issues. Changing back to the original hammer spring eliminated the issue. It seemed like a combination of primer "hardness" and trigger spring "strength" was in play.
I was well impressed by the hole Silver Bear HP made in my pants and the floor of my car. So much so that I almost daily thank my Higher Power that my education came only at the cost of a pair of jeans and some slicone roofing patch.
Merry Christmas from Nebraska.
I speculate that the hammer spring and type of ammunition might make a difference. The reason I say this is because at one time I installed a "lighter" Wolff spring in one of my P-64's to give an easier DA trigger pull. I then discovered that certain ammunition did not reliably discharge in DA operation while other ammunition had no issues. Changing back to the original hammer spring eliminated the issue. It seemed like a combination of primer "hardness" and trigger spring "strength" was in play.
I was well impressed by the hole Silver Bear HP made in my pants and the floor of my car. So much so that I almost daily thank my Higher Power that my education came only at the cost of a pair of jeans and some slicone roofing patch.
Merry Christmas from Nebraska.
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
WOW! Glad you're okay! Thank you for posting this experience. Heads up notices like this are crucial to everyone's safety.I just yesterday (yes, I had to work Christmas) qualified with my P64 for off-duty carry and just an hour ago made a nice IWB Kydex holster for it. Then I read your post and thought, great ... I carry left-handed so safety-on just isn't in the cards and we carry our guns fully loaded so no "condition three" reflexes ... gadzooks.
But I just did the check and mine definitely has the transfer bar system.
So, I'm locked-and-loaded once more and turns out I didn't waste my time on the range Christmas afternoon. Sweeeeet!
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
Transfer bar system? On the P64? Better check again.tlk67 wrote:
I just yesterday (yes, I had to work Christmas) qualified with my P64 for off-duty carry and just an hour ago made a nice IWB Kydex holster for it. Then I read your post and thought, great ... I carry left-handed so safety-on just isn't in the cards and we carry our guns fully loaded so no "condition three" reflexes ... gadzooks.
But I just did the check and mine definitely has the transfer bar system.
http://www.usgunleather.com
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juniustaylor
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Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
+1 with dfunk! No transfer bar system that I know of. I think some folks have the idea of shorter and longer firing pins. Regardless of what length of firing pin you have, it should set the primer off if it is allowed to be pulled back a short distance and then released.
The only ways to be sure this won't happen is:
1. carry with the chamber empty,
2. carry with round in chamber w/ safety on,
3. bob the hammer like I did and have one in the chamber, safety off.
The only ways to be sure this won't happen is:
1. carry with the chamber empty,
2. carry with round in chamber w/ safety on,
3. bob the hammer like I did and have one in the chamber, safety off.
US Air Force Veteran - OEF/OIF
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juniustaylor
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Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
My bobbed hammer:
Even with my 17# hammer spring I have NEVER had a light strike. Never.
Even with my 17# hammer spring I have NEVER had a light strike. Never.
US Air Force Veteran - OEF/OIF
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
Okay, I mispoke, using the vernacular of another. Please allow me a moment to clarify what I _should_ have said had I bothered to take the time to say it. 
(ahem)
No, there is not a "transfer bar" in the sense of, say, a S&W revolver, etc. However, there is something which prevents the hammer in mine from going forward enough to strike the firing pin until the trigger is fully to the rear. In stripping it and observing the firing mechanism, I note that with the hammer cocked, upon pulling the trigger the hammer can be lowered (carefully, don't wanna just smack the frame), though as you're easing it down, you have to push it all the way forward to a firing position. This also raises the disconnector (one of the ways this pistol differs from a Walther design ... one of the few ways ... why change what works?) where it can be engaged by the slide if the slide were indeed in place. Keeping the trigger back lets me pull the hammer back and ease it down as many times as I care to. Releasing the trigger, however, settles the disconnecter back down and thereafter the hammer cannot go any further forward than it's resting spot some distance from any concerns about touching the firing pin. Come to think of it, that's very much the way my SIG P226 hammer works ... albeit with a bit more passive safeties and a somewhat different overall mechanism.
In short, pulling the trigger does its deed to the hammer which then, after doing its deed to the firing pin, springs back to what would one might call a half-cock notch. Obvioulsy you cannot see my pistol's hammer, but in looking at a schematic you'll see the hammer does seem to have a half cock notch. When I pull the trigger, ease the hammer down, hold it in place, release the trigger and then release the hammer, I see the sear spring extend, hear an audible "click" and it feels like the half-cock notch is engaged by the sear.
Now, as anyone who ever carried a pre-Series 80 Colt or similar firearm knows, the half-cock notch can wear or break just like any other part. I would recommend inspecting this part just like any other major part for wear whenever you clean and/or service your weapon. It's all part of the whole "Is the slid on? Does it rack and return correctly? Does the safety lever do what it's supposed to do? Is the hammer stopping on half-cock (or whatever) right? ..." You know, the check you do upon cleaning or servicing a pistol before loading it and putting it back into service.
Also, again as anyone ... yadda, yadda, ... Colt pre-Series 80 ... yadda, yadda ... there is no firing pin lock (with the safety disengaged) BUT the pin, while sadly not of the "inertial" type, is spring loaded which should help if one goes about dropping said firearm.
To sum up: I misspoke and used an improper term (shameful and I'm awefully embarassed about it; I'm always on my people to say what they mean and mean what they say ... I violated me own rule ). My pistol's half-cock notch works and seems to be in fine order. Your mileage, of course (esp. on older, out-of-date, iron-curtain era weapons) may vary. 
Older pistol w/worn parts could well equal "BANG!" Older pistol with all parts in good working order should NOT go "BANG!" except when you intend it to. Of course, it is a man-made device and as such nothing is infallable. Know YOUR weapon.
(ahem)
No, there is not a "transfer bar" in the sense of, say, a S&W revolver, etc. However, there is something which prevents the hammer in mine from going forward enough to strike the firing pin until the trigger is fully to the rear. In stripping it and observing the firing mechanism, I note that with the hammer cocked, upon pulling the trigger the hammer can be lowered (carefully, don't wanna just smack the frame), though as you're easing it down, you have to push it all the way forward to a firing position. This also raises the disconnector (one of the ways this pistol differs from a Walther design ... one of the few ways ... why change what works?) where it can be engaged by the slide if the slide were indeed in place. Keeping the trigger back lets me pull the hammer back and ease it down as many times as I care to. Releasing the trigger, however, settles the disconnecter back down and thereafter the hammer cannot go any further forward than it's resting spot some distance from any concerns about touching the firing pin. Come to think of it, that's very much the way my SIG P226 hammer works ... albeit with a bit more passive safeties and a somewhat different overall mechanism.
In short, pulling the trigger does its deed to the hammer which then, after doing its deed to the firing pin, springs back to what would one might call a half-cock notch. Obvioulsy you cannot see my pistol's hammer, but in looking at a schematic you'll see the hammer does seem to have a half cock notch. When I pull the trigger, ease the hammer down, hold it in place, release the trigger and then release the hammer, I see the sear spring extend, hear an audible "click" and it feels like the half-cock notch is engaged by the sear.
Now, as anyone who ever carried a pre-Series 80 Colt or similar firearm knows, the half-cock notch can wear or break just like any other part. I would recommend inspecting this part just like any other major part for wear whenever you clean and/or service your weapon. It's all part of the whole "Is the slid on? Does it rack and return correctly? Does the safety lever do what it's supposed to do? Is the hammer stopping on half-cock (or whatever) right? ..." You know, the check you do upon cleaning or servicing a pistol before loading it and putting it back into service.
Also, again as anyone ... yadda, yadda, ... Colt pre-Series 80 ... yadda, yadda ... there is no firing pin lock (with the safety disengaged) BUT the pin, while sadly not of the "inertial" type, is spring loaded which should help if one goes about dropping said firearm. To sum up: I misspoke and used an improper term (shameful and I'm awefully embarassed about it; I'm always on my people to say what they mean and mean what they say ... I violated me own rule
). My pistol's half-cock notch works and seems to be in fine order. Your mileage, of course (esp. on older, out-of-date, iron-curtain era weapons) may vary. Older pistol w/worn parts could well equal "BANG!" Older pistol with all parts in good working order should NOT go "BANG!" except when you intend it to. Of course, it is a man-made device and as such nothing is infallable. Know YOUR weapon.
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
I don't have my gun handy, but I don't believe there is a half-cock on the P64. From my memory, it does have two notches; 1 is for the trigger bar to grab and move the hammer to full cock during DA, the other is further back and is the notch the sear nose rides on during single action. When you say that your P64's half-cock works, I assume you mean that it behaves like a 1911's half-cock, in that it catches the hammer before it reaches the firing pin. If this is the case, I believe yours to be faulty.
Also (from memory...I could be wrong), the disconnector, with slide in place, will remain up in it's cutout. The only way it it does it's job is if the slide is traveling over it and pushing it down (which pushes the trigger bar down and out of reach of the hammer and sear), OR, if you activate the safety.
Also (from memory...I could be wrong), the disconnector, with slide in place, will remain up in it's cutout. The only way it it does it's job is if the slide is traveling over it and pushing it down (which pushes the trigger bar down and out of reach of the hammer and sear), OR, if you activate the safety.
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juniustaylor
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Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
I did take my hammer out, saw the notches you speak of, and with the slide off did repeat the results shown. However, when the gun is reassembled (slide on), the firing pin will still hit a primer if the hammer is pulled back slightly by hand and then released (finger not on the trigger). None of my parts are worn. I just don't feel that the P-64 has a true sear catch in case of a problem with full cock and the hammer falls by accident. Mine would go bang. My CZ-82, however, does have a true block. I would say with my P-64, the firing pin either sticks a bit far toward the hammer or else it is fine and works normal. Maybe some other folks will chime in with their results.
US Air Force Veteran - OEF/OIF
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
Like I said ... "what one might call a half-cock notch..." and I just used the term because it was closest to defining what it does. We can call it a first notch if ya'll like. I can't find nomenclature with it listed. In any event, there does not appear to be any fault with mine. The hammer cannot go all the way forward without the trigger all the way back and short of strapping it in a vice and whacking the lowered hammer with a 20 lb sledge, I can't seem to make it go forward unless, like I said, the trigger is pulled. In looking at the weapon dissembled, this seems to be the way it was designed to work. Mine was made in 1970; there may be subtle design changes during certain years (besides the hammer spur, of course). In my case with my particular P64, I cannot seem to make it go "Bang" without pulling the trigger. Believe me, if I still had any doubts I wouldn't be carrying it around. I do function checks with the weapons that I carry all the time, several times weekly. An AD/ND could bring my career to a screeching halt and let's face it ... it'd be a long climb up the ol' corporate ladder to get into any other profession. If anything changes and the hammer on mine starts touching the firing pin with the hammer at rest, or I find any other safety issues, I'll definitely report it here.
Insofar as the disconnector, yes, it remains "up" in the notch in the slide, but it can lower a bit as it does when the slide passes over it. It's only a slight bump downward, but that's what resets the mechanism and keeps the pistol from going full-auto. I may have not been clear in my earlier description. I don't mean it bobs up by vast amounts, just a wee bit (as in, to fill the notch and to be ridden down a tiny bit as the slide passes over. I didn't pull out my micrometer, but the travel up or down would be measured in millimeters.
It seems to me there is quite a variance in different examples of P64s. This is not surprising given it's Cold-War origin behind the Iron Curtain. Having handled only a few examples and owning only one, I may not have the qualifications to express any opinion on any weapon other than mine, but at the risk of being wrong, it seems that if yours is not working properly, perhaps minor parts switching might fix it (firing pin maybe over long, hammer may be worn, some internals might be off ...). FWIW, I had mine gone over by a gunsmith/friend/coworker of mine who has more old-school knowledge in his head than I can ever hope to bleed off him. He's VERY conservative about what's safe and what's not. He went over my P64 when I first got it (and again today) and pronounced it carry worthy. Again, this is MY P64 only that I'm talking about; everyone's mileage may vary ... quit a bit with old Com-Bloc weapons.
I think the lesson one should take away is that if you get a good one GREAT ... keep an eye on it (like one should do with ANY firearm or other mechanical device). If yours has problems, there's probably a fix. It might involve buying another one and using the first for parts (LOL) but at $200 or under ... that's not a bad deal!
Insofar as the disconnector, yes, it remains "up" in the notch in the slide, but it can lower a bit as it does when the slide passes over it. It's only a slight bump downward, but that's what resets the mechanism and keeps the pistol from going full-auto. I may have not been clear in my earlier description. I don't mean it bobs up by vast amounts, just a wee bit (as in, to fill the notch and to be ridden down a tiny bit as the slide passes over. I didn't pull out my micrometer, but the travel up or down would be measured in millimeters.
It seems to me there is quite a variance in different examples of P64s. This is not surprising given it's Cold-War origin behind the Iron Curtain. Having handled only a few examples and owning only one, I may not have the qualifications to express any opinion on any weapon other than mine, but at the risk of being wrong, it seems that if yours is not working properly, perhaps minor parts switching might fix it (firing pin maybe over long, hammer may be worn, some internals might be off ...). FWIW, I had mine gone over by a gunsmith/friend/coworker of mine who has more old-school knowledge in his head than I can ever hope to bleed off him. He's VERY conservative about what's safe and what's not. He went over my P64 when I first got it (and again today) and pronounced it carry worthy. Again, this is MY P64 only that I'm talking about; everyone's mileage may vary ... quit a bit with old Com-Bloc weapons.
I think the lesson one should take away is that if you get a good one GREAT ... keep an eye on it (like one should do with ANY firearm or other mechanical device). If yours has problems, there's probably a fix. It might involve buying another one and using the first for parts (LOL) but at $200 or under ... that's not a bad deal!
Re: Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigg
Thanks very much for this discussion everyone.
I did see mention of an "internal safety" somewhere (wiki or one of the manuals I think), and I've personally tested two vintage 1974 pistols - both of them did not let the hammer move the firing pin unless the trigger was pressed. (tested as noted in my last post, not with actual primed shells.)
That said, I'm figuring that whatever internal safety mechanism there may or may not be, I'm going to assume that it is insufficient to protect my (_!_) 100% of the time. Especially after seeing a pair of blue jeans and a Chevy with a smoking hole in them.
So it's "safety on" for me if I carry my P64 (I have to confess, I'm a wheel gunner.)
I think I may take my little Polish friend down to the range and actually try to get it to fire with my finger off the trigger. (Even if it doesn't fire that way, I'm still going to use the safety.)
I did see mention of an "internal safety" somewhere (wiki or one of the manuals I think), and I've personally tested two vintage 1974 pistols - both of them did not let the hammer move the firing pin unless the trigger was pressed. (tested as noted in my last post, not with actual primed shells.)
That said, I'm figuring that whatever internal safety mechanism there may or may not be, I'm going to assume that it is insufficient to protect my (_!_) 100% of the time. Especially after seeing a pair of blue jeans and a Chevy with a smoking hole in them.
So it's "safety on" for me if I carry my P64 (I have to confess, I'm a wheel gunner.)
I think I may take my little Polish friend down to the range and actually try to get it to fire with my finger off the trigger. (Even if it doesn't fire that way, I'm still going to use the safety.)