I got shot by my P64 yesterday...

[JB7748]

Wow, After viewing the photos I was thinking would it be better to have a FMJ chambered instead of a HP if a similar event occurred? I normally load my magazines with a mix of JHP and FMJ. Hope everything heals quick.

[Tinkerer]

... I tried several times to duplicate your mishap, I went as far as smacking the cocked hammer ....

I did not have the hammer cocked. The condition of the P64 when it hit the floor was round chambered, hammer down (not cocked), and safety off. The pistol is in excellent condition and I have the lighter mainspring installed to reduce the DA trigger pull. Those are the conditions you must meet to duplicate the situation. I have both hands working again, but can't grip anything too tightly without starting the bleeding back up. Soon I'll be able to check the pistol more carefully. I plan to test to see if the safety would have prevented this, I think it would have. I will also reinstall the original mainspring to see if it makes a difference. I'll run tests using empty, primed cases.

[Tinkerer]

Wow, After viewing the photos I was thinking would it be better to have a FMJ chambered instead of a HP if a similar event occurred? I normally load my magazines with a mix of JHP and FMJ. Hope everything heals quick.

I recently read an article regarding the use of FMJ vs HP in lighter handgun calibers. I can't remember the source right now. The gist was that law enforcement often prefers FMJ bullets in lighter caliber backup guns. They want penetration capability as bad guys often wear thick clothing that pretty much stops HP bullets from getting through.

[ZombieZak]

The two guns I cay most often are the H&K USP compact and the Bersa thunder cc, both of these guns actually have a firing pin block that wont allow the firing pin to strike the primer unless the trigger is being pulled. I know that the P64 doesn't have that safety feature, but do any of the 9x18 guns?

[dfunk]

... I tried several times to duplicate your mishap, I went as far as smacking the cocked hammer ....

I did not have the hammer cocked. The condition of the P64 when it hit the floor was round chambered, hammer down (not cocked), and safety off. The pistol is in excellent condition and I have the lighter mainspring installed to reduce the DA trigger pull. Those are the conditions you must meet to duplicate the situation. I have both hands working again, but can't grip anything too tightly without starting the bleeding back up. Soon I'll be able to check the pistol more carefully. I plan to test to see if the safety would have prevented this, I think it would have. I will also reinstall the original mainspring to see if it makes a difference. I'll run tests using empty, primed cases.

Which weight mainspring do you have installed? Did the gun cycle after the shot? Forgive me for so many questions, but this is the first incident of this kind with this gun that most of us are aware of.

The bottom line with the P64 is that the safety, when in the ON position, blocks the firing pin from any contact with the hammer. If the gun did indeed land directly on the hammer, and the ~1/16" forward travel of the hammer (on yours) was enough to counter the inertia of the falling firing pin and fire a shot, then the safety would have prevented this, in my opinion. I'm no physics expert, though.

[Tinkerer]

Sorry, I couldn't tell which hammer spring I put in. I have my original P64 spring, but I did not keep the packaging for the Wolfe replacement hammer spring. I'll try to get some pics up of the hammer movement so it will be more easily compared to other pistols. The pistol was in a Wild Bill Paddle holster when it hit the floor. The slide did not cycle. The spent case was still in the chamber, the hammer was not cocked after the shot.

[mychoads]

When you replaced the Main Spring did you also replace the firing pin spring? I know my Wolf spring calibration pack for the P-64 also came with firing pin springs which (if i remember correctly) were longer than the original.

Either way it seems like you had a perfect storm scenario for the weapon to fire when dropped and I am very interested in the results of your testing after you are feeling better. Please keep us updated.... And thanks for sharing your story

[juniustaylor]

The FP spring from Wolff is used a bit to counteract the excessive force from a heavier recoil spring. At the same time it also retracts the firing pin faster during action cycle to keep from having drag marks on primers which can ultimately damage a firing pin tip. I think it's around 40% stronger. This info came from a Wolff customer service rep.

Hope you heal quickly Tinkerer.

[Tinkerer]

The left hand is getting much better. Yesterday was the first day the goop didn't soak through the bandages. I think the bullet just ran along the underside of my skin. I can't believe my arm would be getting better this fast if I really had a hole through the muscle like the docs said. Anyway, I took the time to field-strip the P64 and learn more about the inner workings. Here is what I have so far:

1. The decocker/safety would definitely have prevented the hammer from moving toward the firing pin. It is a sturdy mechanical block that shields the firing pin from the hammer.
2. There is a stop in the trigger mechanism that limits the hammer's forward travel when the trigger is not pulled. In my pistol, the hammer still moves far enough to push the firing pin out past the bolt face. The firing pin protrudes only a few thousandths, but it will move a pencil inserted into the barrel with the eraser against the bolt face. I don't know how substantial this internal hammer stop is or if the hammer could be forced past it in a situation like I had.
3. I still plan to do more checking.

For right now, I'm still carrying my P64, but with the decocker down in the safe position.

[electross]

Glad your feeling better. Interesting stuff about the de-cocker and safety. I played with mine and don't see that the firing pin would be struck with the safety off and the hammer already dropped BUT I am not hitting with the same force yours had by dropping on the floor. The gun seems very well built to prevent this type of accident but obviously it does and will happen. Take care.

[fsmitka]

Glad to hear you are alright. Thanks for giving the rest of us a heads-up, my safety will stay on.

[wyo-man]

Glad you are on the mend. Please keep us posted.

wyo-man

[blueeagle]

Hello everyone. I've owned my P64 for about a year now, and I carry it off and on, when I am not carrying one of my other guns. This is my first post in this forum, however.

I was raised by a Marine, who was trained in the 1911 era of chamber-empty carry. So, carrying with one in the chamber has been a huge mental battle for me. Seeing this, made me look into it more deeply.

I field-stripped my P64, and started playing with the parts. Pictures with explanations below.

This is my P64 slide with the safety turned to the OFF, (or FIRE) position. In this position, you can see the firing pin and its return spring. By pushing on this return spring, I am obviously able to push the firing pin forward without much effort. Shown below, are the hands of my lovely girlfriend pushing the firing pin forward with a pencil, (I needed my hands to work the camera.)

If you compare the two pictures, you can see about half as much of the spring in the second picture; and it will go further than that, way more than enough to reach the primer.

In the following picture, the safety is turned to the ON, (SAFE,) position. From this picture, you can see that the firing pin has a part that sticks off of the side, which will not permit it to move forward when the safety is on. As you can see it in that picture, you are looking at that extrusion through the slot in the safety assembly that it would travel through during normal firing of the weapon. When turning the safety from here to the "off" position, the safety assembly rotates from left to right.


So, in addition to the substantial hammer block, (which can be vaguely seen in the first picture, and very easily on all of our P64s,) the firing pin will not move with the safety engaged. So, if dropped with the safety on, you have a block that keep the hammer from striking the firing pin, and you have that extrusion on the firing pin itself to keep the pin from moving due to its own inertia. With the safety on, I was unable to pry the firing pin forward far enough for it to stick out of its hole, much less reach the primer. If I can't pry it over there with a knife blade, I'm fairly certain that the inertia of the tiny pin itself will not be enough to get it there.

I know most of you already knew this, but I though that some pretty pictures might help the explanation. I can see how the firing pin could easily be bumped into the primer with the safety off, but with the safety on, the only way I could see it happening would be if the firing pin somehow gained enough energy to snap that extrusion off of it's side. Short of a hammer and carefully placed chisel, I don't think it's going to happen.

Helluva first post...I didn't mean to ramble this long.

[gunneyrabbit]

Blueeagle, congratulatione's on excellent first post, hope to hear and see more from you. Also, welcome aboard, it's always good to hear from a new member.
G.R.

[Tinkerer]

BlueEagle, Thanks for the great pictures and for confirming that I am safe to carry the P64 with the decocker/safety down. I have several friends who carry 1911's loaded and cocked, with safety on. I own a couple of 1911's, but could never feel comfortable carrying them with the hammer back. Not even with a leather strap between hammer and slide. That is why I really like the DA/SA P64. It would be great if I didn't have to remember to click off a safety in a tense situation, but with practice I think I can make it work. I guess the safest of all are the DAO striker fired pistols with grip and trigger actuated safeties, but I don't like overly complicated mechanical things. Too many moving parts to get out of sync. Besides, I just can't get used to square pistols...just my narrow minded opinion. No offense to others ...