Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

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TriggerMortis
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Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by TriggerMortis » July 5th, 2010, 8:34 pm

sorry, don't have pics of it yet. my local cabelas is just over the state line, so it will be a few days for it to make it to the shop here in town so i can take it home. I'll post some pics as soon as i can.

I seem to have read that a 20# recoil spring and 18# hammer or main spring is the standard for replacements. is the 17# main spring bad? any suggestions?

so these P64's that cabelas had were pretty nice. $199, 2 mags, holster, rod and i couldn't spot any finish wear on the one in the case or on the one i got. i didn't break it down, but the inside looked pretty nice from what i could see. the one i got was a 67 or 69 and it had a red/purple safety. i asked if they had any with the triangular hammer and they said no, all the ones they had were the older ones with the round hammer. they apparently sold fairly quickly as they hadn't had them very long and there were only 3 left. 2 now.

anywhos, thanks for the good info. look forward to owning it.
ERiC Miller

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by normsutton » July 5th, 2010, 9:00 pm

TriggerMortis

if you are going to carry this gun I don't recommend you the 17 # the 18# is as a low as I would go, you could get miss fires and mag drops ,

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TriggerMortis
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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by TriggerMortis » July 5th, 2010, 9:50 pm

OOOHHHH!!! duh. The misfires I had considered, but I forgot the other end of the spring is attached to the mag release. Thank you for setting me straight on that.
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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by tooldawg99 » July 5th, 2010, 11:28 pm

I strongly suggest taking the P-64 AS IS to the range for a few magazines before you change anything. This little beauty performed in military service with the springs just as you will get them, and many people, myself included, think the gun is perfectly acceptable just the way it is.

It will take a deliberate pull of the trigger once a round is chambered in order to fire. I think that is a good thing! Follow-up shots are much lighter, as a result of the double action trigger, which again, is a good thing.

I don't know of anyone who owns this pistol who was unable to fire it with the stock springs. However, once you have fired off a few magazines, if you feel more comfortable changing the springs, by all means, tinker away! But keep in mind that if ever used in a self-defense situation, your gun will be confiscated and examined by a professional...the last thing anyone would want is an expert appointed by the prosecution saying you changed springs on a weapon to have a "hair-trigger" because you wanted to kill someone! Then proceed to show that you in no way shape or form are a certified gunsmith, nor are you a firearms expert...

I cannot see anything positive coming from changing springs, or anything else on a weapon to be carried for self-defense...including putting skulls and crossbones on grips, or anything else that might be used against you in the event you are involved in a shooting.

Just my humble opinion. Be safe!

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by juniustaylor » July 6th, 2010, 1:08 pm

I slightly agree with some of tooldawg's points - you should try it stock as it is. The crappy hammer spring is one of the reasons the Polish abandoned this pistol. That, a short sight radius, the small magazine capacity, and the recoil were all factors for them working to produce the P-83.

Maybe I'm just naive, but is the judicial system really that insane? Are people really that paranoid about being prosecuted because you shot someone in self defense and they (court system) have your gun analyzed and just because you put a lighter spring in it is grounds for accusing you of "wanting to kill someone"? So, all these target shooters that replace their springs, if they killed someone with that gun, that makes them a willful killer? Weird. Maybe they should have the prosecutor take the gun to the shooting range and put a few rounds through it DA... maybe he'd appreciate the lighter spring and understand why it was changed. ;)

I personally use the 17# spring with no ill-effects. Do as you wish, what works for me may not work for you.

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by shinerjohn » July 6th, 2010, 2:26 pm

I have 2 P-64s. I put the 17# hammer spring in one and the 18# in the other. I have had no problems with either one. The only thing I would warn you about the 17# spring is that the SA trigger pull is also lighter. It is not at all unusual for me to fire the first SA followup shot (after the DA shot) BEFORE I intend to. I've considered replacing it with a 18# but haven't done it yet. At any rate, I sure wouldn't call the trigger with the 17#er a hair trigger.
Congrats on your new pistol! You will love it!

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by TriggerMortis » July 6th, 2010, 2:59 pm

Well, I don't meant to hurt anyones feelings, but I AM changing the springs. I think it's a good idea to change the recoil spring for the heavier/hotter modern ammo. And I have pulled the DA trigger on a few P64's before and it is quite insane. The only thing I can imagine hitting after that DA pull is my foot. Actually, I tried the one they had for display at Cabelas, and holding the gun with both hands, I could not pull the trigger far enough for the hammer to drop. I'm 6'1" and 200#s and I couldn't pull the DA trigger on that thing. (maybe it needed to be cleaned.)

juniustaylor
yeah, you might be a little naive when it comes to this. in court, depending on where you live, prosecuting attorneys will find any ridiculous excuse they can find to make YOU an example to prevent other people from protecting themselves with a gun (which they see as bad). The thing is, they would have to know that you have lighter springs in it and it's not like they're labeled or anything.

I've shot a PPK before and it was quite a handful. Fortunately, this is not my happy fun time range gun. For what I need it for, I'm sure this will work quite well. I know it will fit in my tuxedo much better than my Makarov or my CZ82.
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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by dfunk » July 6th, 2010, 3:40 pm

TriggerMortis wrote:I think it's a good idea to change the recoil spring for the heavier/hotter modern ammo.
I'm in the same group that suggests shooting a couple hundred through it before swapping springs. I also think that if you insist on changing springs, the recoil spring is totally unnecessary. You should stick to 94 gr bullets, which are readily available and what the pistol was designed to fire. Everything smooths out with use, and the DA trigger is no exception.

For what it's worth, your gun, while clean looking on the outside, will likely be terribly dirty on the inside. Be sure to clean it up thoroughly.

Welcome aboard :hi:
We look forward to pics and a range report!

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by tooldawg99 » July 6th, 2010, 3:53 pm

"It is not at all unusual for me to fire the first SA followup shot (after the DA shot) BEFORE I intend to."

Folks: this is the very DEFINITION of a hair-trigger!

This kind of comment is EXACTLY what will be used against you in court to put your a$$ in jail if you are involved in a shooting! And if you think the gun won't be examined by an expert, and records of your purchases for the gun won't be taken from you (including accessories, and especially any "customizing" you had done), you are kidding yourselves. Can an expert tell if a spring is new production or original to a 20+ year old gun? I think so.
Feel free, and do as you wish. But I can tell you that ANYONE ever involved in a shooting will tell you the same story. Keep it stock, and if any mods are done, make sure they are done to make the weapon MORE DIFFICULT to fire! Some ppl even suggest taking D/A revolvers and grinding off the hammer so they become S/A only... it would be difficult for anyone to come after you for making a weapon more difficult to fire, and rendering a D/A revolver to S/A only eliminates the possibility for an "accidental discharge" or a lighter trigger pull.
And for all the "experts" out there who have modified their trigger pulls in order to fire faster/quicker/easier....God help them if they ever use that weapon in self-defense, because most defense attorney's won't be able to!

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by mwarren1 » July 6th, 2010, 5:22 pm

For now, I am leaving my P64 as is, primarily because it is reliable as is. Yes, the double action is stiff and it would be nice if it were lighter. However, the single action is as light as I care to have it. I already have a natural tendency to follow a double-action shot with my P64 with a quicker than anticipated "double tap" single-action second shot. Personally, I would only use the double-action on any of my auto pistols in a dire emergency.

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by stover » July 6th, 2010, 6:29 pm

On mine the 18# spring drops the mag consistently, upped it to 19#. The trigger is workable in DA and sweet in SA.

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by TriggerMortis » July 6th, 2010, 7:23 pm

dfunk wrote:You should stick to 94 gr bullets, which are readily available and what the pistol was designed to fire.
I thought I had read somewhere else on this forum that the old school Mak ammo was closer to 70-80 grains and that a heavier recoil spring was strongly recommended to reduce wear on the gun.
And since everyone seems so desperate for me to shoot the gun with the old springs first, allow me to allay your fears and inform all that I will be doing just that.

However, (with one exception) this has been a great discussion about the pros and cons of different spring tensions that I hope will help to inform others down the road.
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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by juniustaylor » July 6th, 2010, 7:29 pm

Thank God I live in the midwest. Never in my life have I heard such ridiculous stories as some of you say about these prosecutors. You couldn't pay me enough money to live in some of these other anti-gun commie states. Kansas (where I currently reside - not by choice, by Air Force) has some pretty good protection for those that carry concealed as well as those protecting their home/property. Missouri (my home) also has pretty decent laws for the law-abiding citizens. No official law states you CANNOT do as you see fit with your own gun. None that I know of anyway.

About hotter/modern stuff. As dickfunk said, stick with the regular 94'ish grain stuff. Whether you choose HP's or FMJ's is up to your taste. Not much reason for the Cor-Bon crap, if you're looking for that power, buy a 9mm Luger (or bigger) but Luger is sufficient. That manual that floats around on the internet (JG Sales and even the P-64 site) by D.R. Morse is mistaken when it says the gun was supposed to fire 71 grain ammo. The REAL Polish manual says the bullet weight is 6 grams. Which equals approximately 93 grains. That duped me into buying a heavier recoil spring and there was no reason to. Looking back it was a waste of $12. There is little to no recoil reduction IMO.

FWIW...

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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by blinddog » July 6th, 2010, 8:12 pm

I have a couple of P-64's and both of them are stock. I have found no reason to change anything on these fine weapons because in my mind they function just like a foreign military pistol should function. I agree with tooldawg If I have to use my Pistole I don't want to have anything to go against me or my firearm.
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Re: Bought a P64 from Cabela's today! springs?

Post by DocCasualty » July 7th, 2010, 9:00 pm

tooldawg99 wrote: I don't know of anyone who owns this pistol who was unable to fire it with the stock springs. However, once you have fired off a few magazines, if you feel more comfortable changing the springs, by all means, tinker away! But keep in mind that if ever used in a self-defense situation, your gun will be confiscated and examined by a professional...the last thing anyone would want is an expert appointed by the prosecution saying you changed springs on a weapon to have a "hair-trigger" because you wanted to kill someone! Then proceed to show that you in no way shape or form are a certified gunsmith, nor are you a firearms expert...

I cannot see anything positive coming from changing springs, or anything else on a weapon to be carried for self-defense...including putting skulls and crossbones on grips, or anything else that might be used against you in the event you are involved in a shooting.

Just my humble opinion. Be safe!
Well, now you know someone who could not fire this pistol with the stock hammer spring. Yep, even after detail cleaning it, I would have to use two fingers at times to fire it in DA. With a 17# spring mine is now just right. I admit that SA trigger pull is light, but only a minor difference from the SA trigger pull with the stock spring. I think the answer to that is a slightly heavier trigger return spring, something I would like to pursue at some point.

I read what you have written and know exactly where you are coming from. If this is from personal experience, than I'm sorry you ever had to go down that road, however, given my personal experience in court (as the object of two civil suits that I won), what we're really talking about here is "theater". And I would go on to say, the theater of the absurd. If the prosecuting or plaintiff's attorney makes a case that your modifications are dangerous, then your attorney makes the case with your experts that these mods made this a safer pistol. I would submit that the lighter DA trigger pull has indeed made this a more accurate and hence safer pistol, less likely to kill an innocent bystander.

We could discuss this until the cows come home, so I'm not out to convince you or anyone of anything. If you're more comfortable with a 24# DA pull, then absolutely, leave it as is. If we take your premise to its logical conclusion, than anyone who has ever had any firearm modified in any way hasn't a leg to stand on. If that's the case, then I would like to see the court cases where this has been the case. I don't doubt that there have been cases where a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney has used this argument and won but that hardy sets the standard of burden, as I'll bet it has been used without success as well.

I'm no attorney but do not believe that any argument one way or the other is absolute. I used to think law was black and white but long ago learned that couldn't be further from the truth.


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