FMJ vs JHP

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mattwestm
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FMJ vs JHP

Post by mattwestm » June 7th, 2010, 11:40 am

I posted this same topic over at gunboards, but I thought I'd ask over at P64 too! I've been reading a lot elsewhere about how some people won't carry hollow point ammo in their 9x18 because of lack of penetration. Am I wasting money on these Silver Bear JHP and should I just stick with FMJ for carrying? What do you guys carry?

Thanks,
MW

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by ReaperEV4 » June 7th, 2010, 4:21 pm

I carry those same hollow points. You are not wasting money. :)

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by juniustaylor » June 7th, 2010, 5:52 pm

Check here... it was a poll a while back. There are some folks comments / thoughts regarding both sides of the spectrum.

http://p64resource.com/forum/viewtopic. ... t=poll+jhp


mikana
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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by mikana » June 7th, 2010, 6:28 pm

This one doesn't include data on the Silver Bear JHP and I can't find Corbon anywhere.

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by Foo Bird » June 7th, 2010, 8:19 pm

mikana wrote:
This one doesn't include data on the Silver Bear JHP and I can't find Corbon anywhere.
Sorry. I was in a hurry when I posted that. The Cor-Bon isn't made anymore.
It's been replaced by the 70gr Powr Ball

I used to have some gelatin tests with the Silver Bear and it did not do well. I can't find what I did with the link, though.

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by Foo Bird » June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm

Here's a post with some good info from another site.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin ... -jhps.html

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by mikana » June 7th, 2010, 10:43 pm

So what would be the problem with saying, "I'll take the JHP's and hope for expansion." Worst case senario, you're not any worse off (other than a few cents a round) than you'd be with FMJ, right?

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by Foo Bird » June 7th, 2010, 11:28 pm

From what I've being seeing with my research, the ones that expand well generally don't tend to penetrate well and vise versa. The goal is penetration and expansion.

The problem is, that if it doesn't expand it makes a liiiittle hole when you want a bigger one. On top of that, overpenetration can actually be a concern even with 9x18. A hollowpoint that doesn't expand tends to act like ball ammo-which can overpenetrate.

The funny thing is that the high velocity hp's usually didn't penetrate very deeply, but were the ones that expanded well. The slower velocity rounds penetrated better, but were the ones with marginal expansion. So the answer seems to be in the middle; a balance of the two.
Maybe they need to tailor the cartridges to the barrel length of the gun? A Keltec PAT3 has different needs than a .380 CZ-83.

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by darrell » June 8th, 2010, 11:59 am

I think that making sure you ammo will always feed properly and you can hit your target with it are the two major concerns. If you hit center of mass you don't have to be overconcerned with overpenetration and .1 or .2 " in extra hole diamater probably won't matter. Those things become an issue when you don't hit your target. Granted it isn't easy to aim when people are shooting back. That is why I use 12 guage for home defense.

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by Arik » June 9th, 2010, 6:18 pm

IMO FWIW I think people over analyze the whole penetration thing.

I dont know about anyone else here but I know that if I was hit with a 9x18 anything (fmj or hp) I wont be a happy camper and probably try to get out of that situation regardless of how I got into it. I doubt I'll be thinking "HA! What a pansy gun! The bullet only penetrated 6-9 inches into my (insert body part here_______) instead of 12 or 17 inches."

Most people who are shot die from going into shock not from the actual bullet. Unless of course shot in the head or through the heart (even that isnt a 100% guaranty) or a major artery that results in rapid blood loss. If a person can keep from going into shock he or she can survive being shot multiple times by a .45.

A few examples
In Philadelphia around 2000-2001 there was a huge police chase that turned ito a shootout. The perp was shot half a dozen by police using 9mm Glocks, and survived.

My friend's father fought in Serbia during their civil war (Balkan war) He was shot 4 times center mass with an AK and spent a few days in the field bleeding out until he was found barely alive. He survived.

During the Russian Finnish war, shortly before WW2 broke out. A famous Finnish sniper was shot in the head by a Russian counter sniper using an explosive 7.62x54r bullet. The Finn lost half his head and spent six months in a coma and lived to be 90 or so.

If you're looking for a handgun to prevent from being a victim by your avg thug the 9x18 whatever is fine. If you're thinking worst case scenario. A 350lb gorilla of a man on a week long PCP binge with a baseball bad, breaking down your door than you dont need a hand gun you need at least a 12g slug. Maybe even an 8g.

Just my 0.00002 cents

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by Foo Bird » June 9th, 2010, 10:04 pm

The ideal is a bullet that penetrates deeply enough to hit vitals, expands enough to maximize stopping power, and doesn't zip thru and drill someone nearby minding their own business.
We understand that there is no magic weapon that will stop someone 100% of the time. People are just trying to make sure they aren't making an already difficult task harder to accomplish.

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by DocCasualty » June 10th, 2010, 12:34 am

Arik wrote: Most people who are shot die from going into shock not from the actual bullet. Unless of course shot in the head or through the heart (even that isnt a 100% guaranty) or a major artery that results in rapid blood loss. If a person can keep from going into shock he or she can survive being shot multiple times by a .45.
While I agree with most of what you said in your post, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Absent knocking out someone's CPU (brain), the only short-term cause of death by being shot is from shock, which is defined as inadequate tissue perfusion. Bullets accomplish this by either knocking out the pump (heart) or the loss of blood volume caused by bleeding from a vessel(s) or a vascular organ. People who do not die from bullet wounds (which did not destroy their brain or heart) were "lucky" enough to maintain adequate tissue perfusion until they received definitive treatment. This is entirely dependent on the path those bullets took when they entered the body. Think of it like Swiss cheese; there are plenty of places to poke and miss the substance.

The whole debate about caliber and bullet-type is really nothing more than an odds game as to which would more likely stop an adversary quicker. I'm not sure what the current statistics are but ~ 20 years ago, the caliber most responsible for death by firearm was .25ACP. Talk about a little whimpy round, however, when used execution style at the brainstem, it's apparently rather effective. LaGarde concluded in "Gunshot Injuries" nearly a century ago that making bigger holes are better, simply because they were more likely to cause serious damage that more quickly incapacitated one's adversary.

That said, all pistol calibers can and do kill people. The FBI recommendations came out of a failure that became magnified. Multiple factors play into what any given bullet will do, based also on what barriers it must pass before ever entering a body. I grew up four doors down from a local LEO who's badge stopped a bullet from entering his chest; go figure.

I think 9X18 is a perfectly acceptable SD caliber. For quite awhile now I have been carrying 9X19 and hadn't given 9mmMak much thought. Now that I'm thinking about rotating my PM and this new P-64 into the mix, I've been giving more thought to available rounds. I have little doubt that the Soviet Bloc felt pretty comfortable with 95 gr FMJ. While I used to carry the Hornady XTP, I'm beginning to wonder more about these online reports that are suggesting a few inches of penetration only in ballistic gel. Haven't made up my mind on this yet.


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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by Dentite » June 10th, 2010, 12:07 pm

Arik wrote:IMO FWIW I think people over analyze the whole penetration thing.

...Most people who are shot die from going into shock not from the actual bullet. Unless of course shot in the head or through the heart (even that isnt a 100% guaranty) or a major artery that results in rapid blood loss. If a person can keep from going into shock he or she can survive being shot multiple times by a .45....
That's kinda like saying people who are shot die from lack of blood and oxygen, not the actual bullet. :P

Good info by Doc

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Re: FMJ vs JHP

Post by buds » June 11th, 2010, 8:21 am

I always carry the HP's in my P64. I do carry 3 extra mags. The first two have more HP's and the last one has FMJ. The problem w/ FMJ is the ricochet issue. Should you miss your targed, the FMJ is more likely to ricochet and in a situation with innocent bystanders, could present a problem. The HP's tend to flatten out when hitting solid objects other than bones. For that reason I carry the HP's. As for feeding, I"ve fired over 100 HP's in my P-64 and never had a FTF of FTE.

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