ammo for home protection?

[rottenrick]

They can't sue you if they're dead. Hornady chambers fine. Use Silver Bear if you must, or FMJ. But, it's hard to argue with a 12ga., it's better to give than receive.

[gearhead]

Well, their survivors can (and usually will) sue. Still, I'd rather take my chances being judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[normsutton]

not in states that have a Castile law like Florida

NORM

[coastal240]

Very interesting discussion. I choose FMJ in the 9x18 round for the following reasons:

Overpenetration is often emphasized by those that prefer shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets. Tests have shown that human skin, on the entry side, can resist penetration as much as 2" (5 cm) of muscle, and skin on the exit side can be the equivalent of up to 4 in (10 cm)[citation needed]. A bullet would need to penetrate greater than approximately 15 inches (38 cm) of tissue simulant to have a chance to completely perforate a 9" (23 cm) thick torso, and would need to penetrate more than 17 inches (43 cm) to actually pose a serious threat to people downrange.

Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it will have a very reduced velocity and probably will no longer be ballistically stable. Missing the intended target altogether, hence leaving a full velocity bullet to harm whatever is in its path, is a much greater threat.

A hit on a less dense peripheral body area, such as a limb, does present a more serious risk of overpenetration however. Penetration of walls and other cover is also a consideration for police and urban use.

According to NYPD SOP-9 (Standard Operating Procedure #9) data, in the year 2000, only 9% of shots fired by officers engaged in gunfights actually hit perpetrators at which they were fired. In the same year, there were a total of 129 "shooting incidents" (including non-gunfights, such as officers firing at aggressive dogs, unarmed or fleeing perpetrators, etc.), 471 total shots fired by officers, 367 shots fired at perpetrators, and 58 total hits on perpetrators by police. So, when non-gunfight shooting data is added, the rate at which police hit what they aim at in real life situations is typically only 15.8%. By either measure, the vast majority of bullets were not stopped by hitting perpetrators, but ultimately encountered some other object. The propensity of these "stray" bullets to pass through windows, walls, car doors, etc. and possibly injure bystanders is a concern, and falls into the overall risk/benefit calculation when considering how much penetration is enough.

and

Humans are in roughly the same class as deer sized game, and in most places, the minimum cartridge power required to hunt deer is more than twice that of the average police sidearm. Handguns are also very inaccurate in the hands of inexperienced shooters, and the average defensive shooter is under a great deal of stress, which further degrades accuracy. These factors combine to require extremely effective terminal ballistics to provide swift incapacitation of the target under far less than ideal circumstances.

Humans walk upright and present relatively unprotected vital organ targets from some angles, and have substantially thinner skin, so the bare minimum penetration is lower than for deer. Cross-torso shots and shots which must first penetrate an arm are relatively common in defensive shooting scenarios, however.

Bullets for use on humans are usually designed to comply with the FBI's penetration requirement of 12 to 18 inches (30 to 46 cm), which is based on the IWBA's requirement of 12.5 to 14 inches (32 to 36 cm). This is to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital blood-bearing organ or central nervous system structure from most angles. Frangible rounds, while they are sold for defensive purposes, are not well suited for the role, as they generally penetrate less than 10 inches (25 cm), and are therefore prone to failure when they must pass through nonvital tissues, such as a hand or arm.

Hollowpoint bullets normally expand most when at their highest velocity; that is, when entering the target. As they expand, they slow. Hollowpoint bullets may not expand when they strike sheet metal, glass, or bulky clothing before the target. These preliminary obstacles can either fill the hollowpoint cavity or deform the lips of the cavity. Either of these effects can prevent the high internal hydraulic pressure necessary to make the hollowpoint round expand.

Tom

[kurremkarm]

Here is a link to the box of truth firing makarov with both hp and ball. Also shows a .38 on same page.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26_3.htm

[coastal240]

kurremkarm,

Great link, thanks for posting. I does support my conclusion that JHP in a 9x18 round for defence is questionable at best.

Tom

[gearhead]

not in states that have a Castile law like Florida

NORM

Didn't say they could collect anything, but they can certainly find a lawyer to file suit and force you to spend thousands to defend yourself against a civil suit. The Castle Doctrine only protects you from a criminal charge, not a civil charge.

I grew up in Mississippi, when Justice Court judges were elected and were NOT required to have a law degree or even any legal training at all. In that place and time, a defense of "The S.O.B. had it comin'!" was a perfectly legitimate defense if you could convince the judge that the S.O.B. did indeed have it comin'. I don't miss some of the abuses that such a system allowed, but I do miss the discretion for logic and justice that such a system allowed.

[rottenrick]

I too live in Florida. All I have to do is feel threatend, and you're toast, not that I would do that. But it's nice too know the law is on my side for a change. I've been reading the box of truth for some time. Check out the 'Buick of truth'. It'll open some eyes a little. There is an absolute wealth of knowledge there. All the stuff you had questions about, but not enough time or resources to actually do.

[paulski]

12 GA. 00 buck

NORM

Well, if we're including not just 9x 18, I would have to agree.
I like my ol' trusty 12 gauge too.

[papabear]

I'm going to assume which is a dangerous thing to do anymore, however, I also assume that "jebib3" was asking about what type 9x18 ammo is best for HD. The simple answer for me is FMJ, that's what the 9x18 pistols were designed for, FMJ penetrates much better and still won't penetrate the outside walls of your home. On the other hand its hard to disagree with a 12ga shotgun for HD, I keep a 12ga Remy 870 w/18"bbl loaded at all time in my home as well as others all over the house. I could care less about being sued by a home invader or their family, we have the Castle Law here in KY also.

I have actually gone through the legal process of having shot someone in my home, however, it was in Illinois back in the early 80's, not a friendly gun owner state then or now, but due process did exist and it took over 18 months for a judge to say I was justified in my actions, he sued me in civil court and lost that case also, I did not on purpose kill the intruder but disabled him and stopped him with a .357 mag to one of his knees, it not only went through his knee but penetrated the outside wall of my home by bouncing off the carpeted slab floor and was found on our patio. Needless to say I would have saved a lot of time and money if I had killed him. Today that scenario won't happen again because of the Castle Law in KY and because I'm not going to go through all that again plus dead men tell no lies, nuff said by me.

[coastal240]

papabear,

Great to hear you came out of that unfortunate situation ahead! I won't shoot anyone unless they make me do it, PERIOD!!! Damn the dirtbag that makes me do it, but I will not hesitate.

WOW that 357 mag is one hot load! Imagine where it would be if it didn't have to go through a knee and hit the carpeted slab first???

Tom

[paulski]

I have actually gone through the legal process of having shot someone in my home, however, it was in Illinois back in the early 80's, not a friendly gun owner state then or now, but due process did exist and it took over 18 months for a judge to say I was justified in my actions, he sued me in civil court and lost that case also.......

But most importantly.... Did you demand they give you your pistol back?

[papabear]

paulski,

Good question, as a mater of fact after all was said a done, I ask for it back, however, I was told that the judge had ordered it destroyed. My attorney found a old obscure IL law that said in essence, if a gun was ordered to be destroyed the part of the gun that had the serial number on it had to be cut out and returned to the owner. So we pursued that and within a week I got my S&W mod 13-3 back..... amazing huh, not really, the gun was never destroyed, it was given to a local police officer through a lottery they had over the gun, I found this out a few years later from a retired officer that I had always respected and we were friends, he couldn't say anything while he was still on the force and I understood that, the main thing was I got my gun back. I'm in no way putting down LEO's or their departments, it was what it was.

I still have the gun today, I did have the hammer bobbed and I eventually put S&W combat stocks on it, its a old true friend to me still to this day.

[45automatic]

12 GA. 00 buck

NORM

+1

[jbabbler]

+1 on the PowrBall ammo. The Powrball ammo is good stuff. I carry it in my 9mm's as well. Very good feeder even in guns that don't feed HPs well. The rounds are lighter but have extremely high velocity and excellent expansion.

Per their Website
# Velocity: 1250fps
# Energy: 242ftlbs

PS... I don't like Safety Slugs AT ALL