ATF and the P-64

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abwehr
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ATF and the P-64

Post by abwehr » November 20th, 2005, 5:57 am

Here is a question for you guys..... Since the P-64 pistols that are in most dealers inventory have the thumbrest grip panel, and most agree it is an ATF "requirement?" that they be added to make it a sporting pistol, what about the size of the pistol?

The P-64 is a small pocket type pistol like the Walther PPK. The P-64 is very close to the size of the PPK and ATF ruled that the PPK could not be imported because of the height of the pistol. If the PPK can't be imported, how can the P-64 be imported? Does the height barely meet the ATF requirements?

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ATF and the P-64

Post by novgarod » November 20th, 2005, 1:52 pm

Very interesting question, abwehr, so I went digging and came up with this initial point system as follows (from [url=http://www.topglock.com)]www.topglock.com)[/url]:

The BATF point system:

To qualify for import, a pistol must score a total of 75 points.
CHARACTERISTICS POINTS
Length: for each 1/4" over 6" 1
Forged steel frame 15
Forged HTS alloy frame 20
Unloaded weight with magazine (per oz) 1
.22 short and .25 auto 0
.22 LR and 7.65mm to .380 auto 3
9mm parabellum and over 10
Locked breech mechanism 5
Loaded chamber indicator 5
Grip Saftey 3
Magazine saftey 5
Firing pin block or lock 10
External hammer 2
Double action 10
Drift adjustable target sight 10
Target grips 5
Target trigger 2

My calculations from this list would be as follows, criterium info (est pts): length, 6.1" (0); steel frame (15); unloaded wt, 22.4 oz (22); caliber, xtra for >.380? (3); breech lock (5); loaded chamber indicator (5); mag safety (5); firing pin block (10); external hammer (2); double action (10).
My total is 77 pts without the target grips. It is very close to the 75 pt limit and there are additional rules on details not listed here (e.g., height, thickness, etc.) that may have made it necessary to add the target grips.

Thanks again for the interesting question - maybe others will research more on this topic. If you recall, the Zastava Model 70 .32 was removed from the import list after initial shipments reached the U.S markets. It is larger than the P-64, but is thinner. I don't see any like-wise problem for the P-64 since it has been here for many months. I don't see any reason, however, why the exporters did not include the original grips as was done for the Maks.

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ATF and the P-64

Post by dfunk » November 20th, 2005, 2:44 pm

What mag safety?

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ATF and the P-64

Post by bankerbilly » November 20th, 2005, 3:09 pm

Sorry, but . . . .

the P-64 is not a "locked breech" pistol.

It's a "blow back" action. :o

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ATF and the P-64

Post by abwehr » November 20th, 2005, 3:49 pm

I come up with aq score of 64 with a quick calculation. This certainly MAY be the reason they added the Thumbrest Grip panel! I really don't care as long as I get to keep mine, LOL

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ATF and the P-64

Post by novgarod » November 20th, 2005, 6:22 pm

Thanks, guys, for the corrections on the import score. I made some quick assumptions to get even close to 75 pts, especially about the action definition. I wonder how it really did make it? Yea, glad I got mine too!

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ATF and the P-64

Post by abwehr » November 21st, 2005, 2:29 pm

Even if you add the 10 points for "Drift Adjustable Sights", this would only bring it up to 74 points. Then add the "target grips" and you would go over the 75 points required.

This one is confusing; it appears the pistol should not have been imported, but since they have been here this long, there should not be any problems with ATF???????

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ATF and the P-64

Post by cruiser » November 21st, 2005, 4:43 pm

Knock,Knock - Our records show you purchased a P-64?

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ATF and the P-64

Post by erehwesle » November 21st, 2005, 4:56 pm

Interesting discussion... The size of this certainly is somewhat smaller than the PPK. Hope we get to keep our P-64s!

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ATF and the P-64

Post by abwehr » November 21st, 2005, 7:20 pm

Yea, this thread just popped into my mind one day since the P-64 and PPK were so close in size. This is really weird that they can be imported and the PPK can't????

Hey "cruiser" I gotta go, someone is knocking at the door, LMAO!!!!!
Last edited by abwehr on November 21st, 2005, 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ATF and the P-64

Post by tunnelrat » January 5th, 2006, 7:25 pm

The ATF Point System is of particular interest to me because the city of Toledo has adopted it as the criteria for legal firearms. The city has concluded that the PPK/s is legal, but is the P-64 a close enough clone of the PPPK/s to qualify?

Try as I might, the best score I get for this little pistol is 74, and that's a squeeze, giving it the benefit of every possible doubt. I am awarding it 10 points for caliber, yet it's not really 9mm Parabellum, and another 10 points for the fancy, drift adjustable target sights (hey, our Polish friends target shoot at 25 meters!).

Mine has the flat grips (very nice -- I am left-handed), but I wonder if I oughta spring for target grips in order to make it meet the import standards (not that any such grips exist, of course...)

Have we figured out yet how this got past the ATF import rules...?
The BATF point system:

To qualify for import, a pistol must score a total of 75 points.
CHARACTERISTICS POINTS
Length: for each 1/4" over 6" 1
Forged steel frame 15
Forged HTS alloy frame 20
Unloaded weight with magazine (per oz) 1
.22 short and .25 auto 0
.22 LR and 7.65mm to .380 auto 3
9mm parabellum and over 10
Locked breech mechanism 5
Loaded chamber indicator 5
Grip Safety 3
Magazine safety 5
Firing pin block or lock 10
External hammer 2
Double action 10
Drift adjustable target sight 10
Target grips 5
Target trigger 2

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ATF and the P-64

Post by mongo » January 5th, 2006, 7:43 pm

I concur that they mis-classed this gun.

Too bad for them..

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ATF and the P-64

Post by dfunk » January 5th, 2006, 10:15 pm

Show me how you guys are tallying up the points for this one...

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ATF and the P-64

Post by xelloss » January 5th, 2006, 10:26 pm

Hmmmmm... Perhaps they have different scoring requirements for current vs. C&R handguns??? After all, the PPK was still in production when it was being sold here (and I believe Walther still manufactures it to a small degree)...

-Mark

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ATF and the P-64

Post by tunnelrat » January 5th, 2006, 10:30 pm

Show me how you guys are tallying up the points for this one...
The BATF point system:

To qualify for import, a pistol must score a total of 75 points.
CHARACTERISTICS POINTS
Length: for each 1/4" over 6" 1
Forged steel frame 15
Forged HTS alloy frame 20
Unloaded weight with magazine (per oz) 1
.22 short and .25 auto 0
.22 LR and 7.65mm to .380 auto 3
9mm parabellum and over 10
Locked breech mechanism 5
Loaded chamber indicator 5
Grip Safety 3
Magazine safety 5
Firing pin block or lock 10
External hammer 2
Double action 10
Drift adjustable target sight 10
Target grips 5
Target trigger 2
Forged Steel Frame 15
Unloaded Weight 22
9mm Parabellum 10 (?)
Loaded Chamber Indicator 5
External Hammer 2
Double Action 10
Drift adjustable target sight 10 (?)
Total 74

That's figuring 9X18 Makarov as 9mm Parabellum (it's not, of course, so minus 7 right there), and calling the sights "target sights" (they're not, despite how well our Polish friends are able to shoot with them).

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