A day at the range . . .

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bankerbilly
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A day at the range . . .

Post by bankerbilly » November 18th, 2005, 4:39 pm

Hello one and all,

Found this GREAT site thru another Makarov site that I read on a daily basis.

Picked-up my first P-64 about a year ago and my second one in September.

I find the P-64 to be a very neat little pocket pistol and both of mine now have had approx 300 rounds thru them and both have been 110% reliable.

Headed out to the local range yesterday and took along a Polish P-64, a Bulgarian Makarov , a chronograph, and three different brands of Russian steel-cased ammo.

The following velocities were recorded at 15 feet from the muzzle. Ten rounds of each type of ammo was test fired, with the average, highest and lowest velocity being recorded.

Bulgarian Makarov:

Wolf 100 grain FMC: Avg: 1008 fps High: 1019 fps Low: 982 fps
Brown Bear 92 FMC: Avg: 998 fps High: 1023 fps Low: 942 fps
Silver Bear 92 FMC: Avg: 1064 fps High: 1098 fps Low: 1025 fps

Polish P-64:

Wolf 100 grain FMC: Avg: 968 fps High: 1000 fps Low: 935 fps
Brown Bear 92 FMC: Avg: 977 fps High: 1024 fps Low: 966 fps
Silver Bear 92 FMC: Avg: 1042 fps High: 1066 fps Low: 1015 fps

As you can see there is very little difference in velocity between the slightly longer barrel of the Bulgarian Makarov and the slightly shorter barrel of the Polish P-64. Using the average velocities of the three different loads, the difference in only 28 fps. That small of a difference could be experienced in two different pistols of the same model !

So . . . if you carry the Polish P-64 as a CCW – and I have now and then – don’t worry about any velocity loss over the Makarov.

Just load it with Silver Bear ammo . . . .

amd6547
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A day at the range . . .

Post by amd6547 » November 18th, 2005, 6:14 pm

OT the P64, but I would like to see how the ultra smooth polygonal rifling on my CZ82 would compare.
I would also like to see some numbers for the Silver Bear 115 gn jhp out of the P64. That is the JHP I carry when not using Fiocchi or S&B fmj.
Thanks for the report.
"I was so much older than, I'm younger then that now..."

b52stan
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A day at the range . . .

Post by b52stan » November 19th, 2005, 12:43 am

I posted this link a while back which gives data for most 9x18 ammo out of a Bulgie Mak. Very comprehensive, and expertly done. It came from another site. As bankerbilly said, should be little difference in the P-64.
Hope this helps,
Stan

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.a ... _ID=110185
Last edited by b52stan on November 19th, 2005, 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dfunk
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A day at the range . . .

Post by dfunk » November 19th, 2005, 12:10 pm

bankerbilly, I'm thinking I should make this a sticky thread as these numbers came straight from the P-64 and NOT a Makarov. Great work and we all thank you.
On another note, you should see my spent casing from the Silver Bear 115gr JHP that amd6547 is referring to. The thread is called "Did I almost blow my gun up?"
Great work!

novgarod
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A day at the range . . .

Post by novgarod » November 19th, 2005, 7:24 pm

Hello, BankerBilly, thanks for the chronograph data. Did you, by any chance, tabulate all the raw data collected to see what pistol-load combinations were statistically significant, i.e., different, from each other? Just curious since you went to all the hard work of collecting the data. Yes, I am a scientist and I get hung up on such things . . . Thanks if you have time to check.

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abwehr
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A day at the range . . .

Post by abwehr » November 20th, 2005, 5:50 am

dickfunk,

Have you had a chance to try any other ammo in your P-64 since the last "outing"? This really was odd for the casing to bulge like it did. From the reading I have done on the pistol, this is the first case of ammo problems.

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dfunk
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Post by dfunk » November 20th, 2005, 11:22 am

Unfortunately I haven't been out since. It actually happened a week ago yesterday. Sources for 9x18 ammo are scarce and the guys who do have it are asking upwards of $19 a box of 50! I need to order some online and make sure I order one box of all the different brands I can find. The odd thing is that the accuracy and function weren't affected by the weird case bulging. It was still right on the money in those departments...

cruiser
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A day at the range . . .

Post by cruiser » November 20th, 2005, 11:30 am

Silver Bear FMJ $6.75 at the gunshow yesterday! But I have plenty on hand. I usually get mine at http://www.aimsurplus.com/

bankerbilly
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A day at the range . . .

Post by bankerbilly » November 20th, 2005, 3:03 pm

Thanks for the replies, gents !

I really love "pocket pistols" and the P-64 is one of my all time favorites ! "Cost effective" , reliable, and cheap to shoot -- what more can you ask for ? ?

and novgarod . . . not sure what your asking. All I recorded was the velocity of 10 rounds of each type of ammo in each pistol and then figured out the average FPS.

I seem to use a lot of the Silver Bear and Brown Bear ammo in pocket pistols, plus I happen to have a couple of boxes of Wolf on hand too. I've read a few bad reports on the 115 grain HP bullet so I mainly use only the 92 FMC ammo.

When I carry anything in 380 or 9Mak caliber for CCW it's always loaded with "ball rounds" -- want penetration over expansion in these "light" calibers.

At the toy show last weekend I was able to pick-up 500 rounds of Brown Bear in 380 caliber and 500 rounds of 9 Mak caliber in Silver Bear. Grand total, out the door price of $105.

Remember -- "cash is king ! "

novgarod
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A day at the range . . .

Post by novgarod » December 1st, 2005, 12:55 am

Some statistical feedback on the range data given by BankerBilly to start this thread -

Since I didn't have the raw data, I went to the "sticky" on the Mak forum that gives info on 38 different commerical loads shot by with a Bulgarian Mak. Since I had BankerBilly's extreme spread (ES) for Wolff, BBear and SBear, it was possible to estimate his standard deviations (SD) for each 10 rounds using the "sticky data" The SD equaled 27, 29, & 30% of the ES, respectively, for each ammo brand, so I took the average, i.e., SD =ES x 0.29. Now I could see if the average means of of each brand were significantly different, using 10 rounds (n) when shot in barrels differing by only 1/4 inch. The SD data came out as follows:

Mak - Wolf - SD 11; Mak - BBear - SD 24; Mak - SBear - SD 21
P64 - Wolf - SD 19; P64 - BBear - SD 17; P64 - SBear - SD 13

Now to run a T test on the means between pistols using the designated ammo -

First, the Wolff comparison:
Probability that 1008 vs 968 (Mak vs P64) is p > 0.001. Two ways to look at this - using this lot of ammo, the mean would be significantly different 999 times out of a 1000; on the other hand, it would only take 3 rounds of Wolff thru each gun to get significance 95 out of 100 times. Wow!

Second, the BBear comparison:
Probability that 998 vs 977 (Mak vs P64) is p < 0.1. If you check the T table, this ammo has too much velocity variation between rounds to expect a significant difference in mean velocities much above 8 out of 10 times, regardless of how many rounds you shot in each pistol.

Thirdly, the SBear comparison:
Probability that 1064 vs 1042 (Mak vs P64) is p >0.05, but p<0.01. So a significant difference in mean velocities between the two pistols would occur 95 out of 100 times, but not 99 times out of a 100 tries. Ho-hum.

Ok, so what? With 10 round lots, only two of the three ammo brands had a variation in velocities small enough to statistically distinguish between that 1/4 inch difference in barrel length if tested 95 times out of 100. According to BankerBilly's data, Brown Bear was not up to this task.

I wonder what would happen if we randomly shot the 30 rounds out of each gun?
Sorry guys, I go off the deep end at times - now a real statistician is going to eat me alive!

novgarod
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A day at the range . . .

Post by novgarod » December 1st, 2005, 11:36 pm

A statistical correction for my last entry on this thread: I thought I proofed my calculations, but the mean difference of Brown Bear between the Mak and P64 was 21 f/s not 11 f/s. Sorry, Brown Bear. With this correction, this brand has the same statistics as given for Silver Bear, i.e., p>0.05, but p<0.01. So, all three brands "cut the mustard" in statistically distinguishing the 1/4 inch difference in barrel length - and all a bargain at ~ $6/box!

I've noted that several members of this forum have mentioned their best accuracy using Wolff and BankerBilly's data indicate that this brand had the least variation between the 10 rounds, a potential quality needed for shooting that single ragged hole in the target. Of course, finding a cartridge showing excellent range accuracy coupled with the most favorable defensive characteristics is a continuous search for most of us.

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